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Default D:OS is it just about elemental damage?

February 6th, 2017, 23:12
So, instead of starting POE as I had planned D:OS caught my eye.

I fired it up this weekend and did my usual routine of restarting 800 times with endless different builds to see how things work and what works.

It seemed that no matter my build combat boiled down to who does the most elemental damage or has the best elemental resistances. I made a backstabbing thief but found it was most effective to just throw bombs and scrolls, ranger, elemental arrows way better than regular, shadowblade, no need to attack just use magic. I've also notice that there's so much elemental crap on the ground that just closing to melee range is a chore in itself. Is there any reason to ever use melee attacks?

I must admit I didn't make a pure fighter because even if it works I have no interest in playing one. I realize I'm skipping probably the best melee class in the game and then saying melee is useless but really melee should be a viable alternative for most classes.

Now don't get me wrong I'm actually enjoying the combat despite this, but I'm concerned 50 hours in how will I enjoy it if combat boils down to checking the enemies elemental resistances and spamming what ever they're weak to.

Full disclosure, I haven't ventured far past the first town or past level 4 so I could just be talking out my ass too early but I want to know if melee is a viable option or if I'll always feel like I'm wasting my time attacking when I could just roast them with, fire, poison, water, electricity, etc.

Also I've looked around the net but have been trying too avoid too much info and I'm see a lot of titles to threads that rouges are useless because they were severely nerfed is EE. That would be disappointing as I want to play rouge for my main. Any truth to that?

Thanks in advance for any replies.
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February 7th, 2017, 00:57
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Is there any reason to ever use melee attacks?
My experience (pre EE) is that as you advance in the game, you face off more and more against creatures with multiple elemental resistances, but physical damage pretty much stay the same all the way through outside a few exception and spell buff that increase physical damage protection.

I believe it was toned down in the EE though. I only played halfway through that version, but focused more on a weapon based party (first playthrough was a spellcaster focused party)…and rogues are not nerfed, mine destroyed stuff in the EE.
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Last edited by azarhal; February 7th, 2017 at 15:13.
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February 7th, 2017, 10:29
I agree with azarhal; it changes over the course of the game. Don't get me wrong: Elemental damage is still king overall, but a hasted warrior, thief or similar has the potential to hit like a truck, and is needed to take out certain enemies.
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February 7th, 2017, 16:00
Thanks guys, I'll just finalize my thief build and decide my other character and get to playing. Sounds like elemental damages will be important but as long as melee's a viable option I'll be fine with it.

I've install the mod to remove (the terrible, terrible, terrible) rock and brush sneak animations and one too speed up walking outside of combat. Any other worthwhile mods before I get serious?
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February 14th, 2017, 01:08
My dad and I's party in the Enhanced Edition was pretty balanced overall. Madora was a beast with 2-handed swords, Wolgraff was almost like a support character with elemental arrows and the various effects that enchanted arrows and bow skills entail, my Witch (my character) was pretty good and mostly a support character, summoning strong creatures as well as debuffing enemies and occasionally hitting them with some Hydrosophist spells. And finally my dad's character was a melee fighter as well and he used grenades often, but not all the time (there were many instances they just weren't that effective and/or we didn't have the best ones to use).

So, while elemental damage is important and what not, I can honestly say that in our experience it was quite balanced and open.

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February 19th, 2017, 15:43
One of my biggest pet peeves in gaming has reared its ugly head.

Level restricted loot. It totally kills exploration. Go off the beat path and pull off a great victory against enemies 4 levels higher than you and your reward? Loot that you can't use until you gain another 4 levels. So basically being able to go anywhere anytime is kind of pointless.

Loving the party banter and the rock, paper scissors debates. Only problem I've had with it is I've had to send my companion away because she won't let anyone else join my party and there's no way to debate it she just says no and they don't join. Also every once in a blue moon I need to answer for both party members but it's very rare.

The sheer amount of VO in this game is impressive and even more impressive it's all pretty good. The animals voices and dialogue are pretty funny.

Excellent game though, so good in fact that I promptly purchased the second one. ( and kind of regret not backing the second kickstarter) I'll probably mess around with it a bit after completing the first game and then shelve it and wait for the EE.
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February 19th, 2017, 16:49
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
The sheer amount of VO in this game is impressive and even more impressive it's all pretty good. The animals voices and dialogue are pretty funny.
The pre-EE version didn't have as much VO and they redid most of what was there for the re-release.

About the 2nd protagonist, if you had picked loyal as a personality at character creation they always agree with you and you don't have to manage them.
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February 19th, 2017, 17:38
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
The pre-EE version didn't have as much VO and they redid most of what was there for the re-release.

About the 2nd protagonist, if you had picked loyal as a personality at character creation they always agree with you and you don't have to manage them.
I picked free spirit, I don't want her to agree with me all the time but I meet 3 joinable npcs and she wouldn't allow any to join. If I want to have a party I need to send her away. Then add them. Seems weird she wouldn't like any of them but I guess I don't know how many other npc's there are. This isn't a big deal just something I though was weird.

Yeah, I remember they added the VO I'm just impressed with it. It's a game with a ton of dialogue and I haven't run into any VO that I thought was bad.
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February 20th, 2017, 06:20
I would like to see more RPGs experiment with group AI in that way. A "Free Spirit" character that has a mind of her own and impacts the game heavily with her choices could be really interesting, if the player was forced to accept it and work with it. Of course it should be an option at the beginning of the game, but for those who want something a bit different I think it has potential.

Reminds me of the random character generator in Lords of Xulima. Sure, creating your party to exact specifications is always fun, but when you randomly generate characters it presents a new challenge - adapt to the game with what you are given. If the generator is "intelligent" as the LoX one seems to be, then even better (the LoX generator seems to "balance" your party in a way. You won't roll 6 Barbarians, in other words. To see it a bit in action feel free to check out my YouTube channel. The Deepest Dark video I show a bit of party creation at the beginning.) I think if the game even had you make ONE roll for an entire party of 6, "intelligently" randomizing their attributes and "balancing" it a bit in some way, that could be very interesting, IMO.

Totally off-topic rambling, sorry.

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February 20th, 2017, 12:20
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
One of my biggest pet peeves in gaming has reared its ugly head.

Level restricted loot. It totally kills exploration. Go off the beat path and pull off a great victory against enemies 4 levels higher than you and your reward? Loot that you can't use until you gain another 4 levels. So basically being able to go anywhere anytime is kind of pointless.
Haha, yes, imagine if Carsomyr from Firkraag had a level restriction on it, so only Paladins near the end of the game could use it? That would totally kill the experience of finally killing that dragon and being rewarded by that amazing sword. I was totally pumped giving that thing to Keldorn.
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March 21st, 2017, 19:32
dood melee and backstabbers are great, but combat is a puzzle, you can neutralize elemental areas -- cool off the fire, explode the poison etc.

use teleport or the pyramids to easily close distance and get your thief/fighter into the right range or across dangerous areas. Dying a lot is expected, especially since enemies arent level-scaled, so you may frequently run into areas that just aren't possible to beat with your current skillset.

and eventually every character should have at least a couple spells that complement their combat strategy. just cause your fighter is a fighter doesnt mean he shouldnt or couldnt have a spell or two to help with the right situation.

in short it's the best combat since Final Fantasy Tactics, but it's *hard* the first time around.
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April 3rd, 2017, 20:55
My own experience, pre EE, is 2H was the most damage dealers from far, but it starts only roughly at level 10, and it's huge since about level 13. But that's just the fastest kill point of view, not the combat control point of view. I played multiple backstabber and they never matched, but they are very fun to play.
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April 3rd, 2017, 21:08
I got frustrated with EE because it broke modding for the most part.
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April 3rd, 2017, 21:17
Originally Posted by aethervagrant View Post
in short it's the best combat since Final Fantasy Tactics, but it's *hard* the first time around.
I failed finish FFT because of the grinding inherent to skill and class system and the game design with difficulty spikes. But now I get why so many players quote them and the class and skill system.

For me DOS classic had too many combats with a weak design, and the goodness of combat system couldn't solve the problem. I ended find overall much better Wasteland 2 combats despite undoubtedly on base on a less remarkable combat system.

Dragonfall has also a less smart combat system than DOS. But where Dragonfall beats DOS is the design of each combat. And that's why I consider Dragonfall has better combats than Wasteland 2 which has better combats than DOS classic.

Now I agree the DOS combat system is rather interesting. Their weakness in comparison of Wasteland 2 and FFT is their inability to really exploit 3D, heights, precise positioning. It could be more a matter of design of each combat than because of the combat system, but the point is here and makes a huge difference.

Too bad it's a crap RPG, but Telepath Tactics looks like quite a pretender to the title of the best Fantasy combats. I don't have a solid opinion on it because i couldn't bear it long enough, but combats and combat system looks like having a lot of depth. But as DOS its weak point is the lack of true 3D use.

Another classical pretender is Temple of Elemental Evil. I haven't played it since a long time, and i wonder if I would be so positive now. For example now I consider AOO isn't a good design, favoring static position too much.

I suppose some of the Tactics JRPG could be added to pretenders list. I tried a few but didn't stick to any beside FFT to have an opinion on their combats.

This is definitely a core problem of the new waves of RPG giving up on real time combats. It's not just a problem of designing a combat system, but it's a problem of skills to design tactical combats. It seems quite a problem for RPG team. The only clear exception I remind was Dragonfall, and partially Wasteland 2, but weirdly it seems that combats designers have been fired for Hong Kong and Planetscape: ToN.
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