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Default The context and long-term relevance of scores as a means to refence quality

September 22nd, 2021, 03:55
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
If I may @lackblogger, I think LB's argument can actually be well-summarised by posting the RPGCodex' Game of the Year results and some examples below. Hopefully this helps clarify.
If Kingmaker had 20x the reviews of Pillars of Eternity or D:OS EE, maybe that could be said to be his argument. As neither has even close to 2x that number (1.2 times in the case of D:OS), that can't really be said to be his argument at all, the like he gave your post notwithstanding. When you further consider the fact that Kingmaker has over 3,000 more negative reviews than D:OS EE does, you can't see his argument from here with a telescope.
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September 22nd, 2021, 04:05
What ARE you talking about? PK has almost double DOS' total for nov 19 to present and nearly triple PoE. Again, do you even math?
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September 22nd, 2021, 04:47
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Essentially, % score isn't the be all end all is my understanding of LB's position.
I think that's a concept that certain people will never comprehend or make the attempt to. It doesn't jibe with the autistic argument that Game A is always objectively better than Game B when it has a higher score on Metacritic.
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September 22nd, 2021, 04:53
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
If Kingmaker had 20x the reviews of Pillars of Eternity or D:OS EE, maybe that could be said to be his argument. As neither has even close to 2x that number (1.2 times in the case of D:OS), that can't really be said to be his argument at all, the like he gave your post notwithstanding. When you further consider the fact that Kingmaker has over 3,000 more negative reviews than D:OS EE does, you can't see his argument from here with a telescope.
I don't understand what you're saying. Can you please clarify?
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September 22nd, 2021, 05:03
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
I don't understand what you're saying. Can you please clarify?
Lackblogger's date range is arbitrary and doesn't make sense if you want to compare the games. Pillars and D:OS had both been out for 4 years already by Nov 2019, whereas Kingmaker had been out for 1 year. So the whole argument of Kingmaker having so many more reviews in that period from Nov to April or whatever is self-serving and not at all revealing of anything but Lackblogger's desperation to win arguments.

I was referring to overall number of reviews. D:OS has around 3,000 fewer reviews total than Kingmaker, but it also has around 3,000 fewer negative reviews than Kingmaker. I hope you would agree that negative reviews are not indicative of favor or quality. Taking that into account, D:OS has about as many positive reviews over its lifespan as Kingmaker does, which makes your point about a game with a lot more reviews but a somewhat lower score ranking higher a moot point. They have close to the same number of reviews… and D:OS still has that higher score.
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September 22nd, 2021, 05:07
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
Pillars and D:OS had both been out for 4 years already by Nov 2019, whereas Kingmaker had been out for 1 year.

I was referring to overall number of reviews. D:OS has around 3,000 fewer reviews total than Kingmaker
Now combine these two facts. Then apply to the current middle distance trend.
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September 22nd, 2021, 08:37
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
Lackblogger's date range is arbitrary and doesn't make sense if you want to compare the games. Pillars and D:OS had both been out for 4 years already by Nov 2019, whereas Kingmaker had been out for 1 year. So the whole argument of Kingmaker having so many more reviews in that period from Nov to April or whatever is self-serving and not at all revealing of anything but Lackblogger's desperation to win arguments.

I was referring to overall number of reviews. D:OS has around 3,000 fewer reviews total than Kingmaker, but it also has around 3,000 fewer negative reviews than Kingmaker. I hope you would agree that negative reviews are not indicative of favor or quality. Taking that into account, D:OS has about as many positive reviews over its lifespan as Kingmaker does, which makes your point about a game with a lot more reviews but a somewhat lower score ranking higher a moot point. They have close to the same number of reviews… and D:OS still has that higher score.
From my perspective this was only one of the multiple points LB was making that wasn't coming across - > % don't tell the whole story.
Combining it with, for example, DOS came at a moment where people were in "need" of games like this and other arguments then the point is still valid.

I won't pretend to be able to judge DOS' quality - as I told Nereida in another post, it didn't click for me - but the point is that many more people played PKM so even though the scoring is somewhat lower, it doesn't mean the quality of the game is lower by the same proportional value.

In other words, a review score of 75% with 1m players and a review score of 85% for 800k players (I pulled the numbers out of thin air) doesn't necessarily mean game quality is lower by 10%. It could mean it is.

It could be, but it could also be other things, like people's expectations of a game, bad marketing, people angry at devs, finding the game too difficult, …
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September 22nd, 2021, 10:03
Well, since more people chimed in and I'm not talking to a record player in loop anymore, is worth to make another post.

Everyone understands the alteration of reality that Lackblogger's attempts to favour his chosen fallacy. He thinks others do not understand it, because he thinks it is a valid argument that is being disregarded. And so he goes in circles repeating it over and over, trying different angles at every chance just to disprove himself again.

It's also a huge fallacy to say that DOS was a game players needed desperately, when a lot of the CRPG community don't even recognise it as a true CRPG, and are so quick to dismiss its qualities. I still see a majority of people in this very site claiming that PF games are the only and true successors to BG. So why were PF games not something players were in desperate need for? Why aren't they the ones getting the 90+ scores? Why do they have 7.5 and 7.8 scores respectively, from the very users that so badly have been needing these games in their lives for 20 years? Answer: They are not that good. It hurts, the truth, but it is futile to look away from it.

Everyone knows what Lackblogger means, but it is false. He knows it, and everyone who reads the data know it. And it will be until the day he, or anyone, can explain why, in his convoluted logic, DOS2 has x10 times the amount of players and reviews than Kingmaker and also a 16-20% difference in positive score both historical and in recency (73 to 93 in MC, 77 to 93 in Steam). Both games were released within a 6 month window, and those facts alone mercilessly crush any pitiful attempts at that false theory. But we already heard the excuse for that, too. It's too inconvenient to be so heavily disproven, so he invented the "original games can only be compared to original games" rule. I guess we'll have to wait for Pathfinder 7 to see how it holds up against Final Fantasy 7, huh?

The simple fact is that when a game is good, more % of players and critics decide that it's good, and it's not really affected in a great measure by the number of players that decide to play the game. Again, it is not 2 or 3 points difference, which may enter the realm of variance in a long term analysis. We are talking of differences of 10 points and greater in every case.

You can keep pulling conveniently manipulated screenshots highlighting conveniently manipulated tidbits of information that you think to favour your chosen fallacy, simply because it is uncomfortable to admit that you are in denial. That for some unexplained cosmic law, your belief is true, but the data that is there for all to see is wrong or misinterpreted, and you have the lucidity of mind to see what most others can't see, you are the illuminated one.

Like a flat-earther would cling to the fact that from this one particular angle, he can't see the curvature of the Earth and so he will repeat that one thing in loops just because in his head it makes sense. It is so clear to see! Why can't every scientist see it? He will disregard the thousands of arguments with crushing evidence that are thrown his way, because he knows better.

Deep at the bottom, he feels it, he dreamed it, or saw it in the stars. NASA is manipulating Metacritic and Steam because they have an agenda. None shall alter his belief.

Really, whatever you need to convince yourself, while being supported by the entourage of character-lacking fan-weavers that can't even have an opinion of their own, and just care to favour or oppose their chosen interlocutor, in a both creepy and obsessive manner. I am fine with this.
Last edited by Nereida; September 22nd, 2021 at 10:45.
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September 22nd, 2021, 17:41
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
It's also a huge fallacy to say that DOS was a game players needed desperately, when a lot of the CRPG community don't even recognise it as a true CRPG, and are so quick to dismiss its qualities. I still see a majority of people in this very site claiming that PF games are the only and true successors to BG. So why were PF games not something players were in desperate need for? Why aren't they the ones getting the 90+ scores? Why do they have 7.5 and 7.8 scores respectively, from the very users that so badly have been needing these games in their lives for 20 years? Answer: They are not that good. It hurts, the truth, but it is futile to look away from it.
In terms of "which game is the true successor to BG", you can count out Divinity entirely. Divinity was never intended to be nor designed around the legacy of BG and was only targeting BG fans in the same way the Divinity franchise always has, by being just another RPG on the market.

Divinity's historical legacy is a combination of Ultima and Diablo. And it's never really tried to be anything else. Div Os's new and unique selling point was co-op.

So when discussing like-for-like as you purported earlier as the base of your position on the concept of quality, the topic was merely isometric, party based, companion filled RPGs. If you want to make allusions to Divinity being a better true successor to Baldur's Gate than XYZ then you're moving into completely potty range.

The two games competing for the True Successor moniker are Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder. I'll talk about Div Os 2 later in the post, don't worry, I'm not brushing it under the carpet.

Now Pillars 1. Is Pillars 1 going to be treated as the successor to BG 1 or BG2?

Maybe. It sure LOOKS like those games from a visual point of view. But are they what the fans of BG 2 were hoping for?

Well, Pillars of Eternity sure beat that drum during kickstarter that it wanted people to expect a BG2-like experience. Did it meet that expectation?

The NUMBERS and LOGEVITY of those numbers suggest not. Sure, there are lots of positive reviews. But there's very few people banging that drum beyond the game's own hype machine. You can't really force people to self-hype something they're not really convinced about.

Perhaps, and this is only a perhaps, the positive reviews are more a case of people just saying "thanks for trying" and "hey, don't worry mate, I still enjoyed it" in the same way you would to a friend. Not to say only friends are making reviews, that's clearly not the case, but Obsidian does have a long history of games and support which does provide natural emotions of friendliness. Their haters likely having stopped bothering to follow their games years ago.

Now what possible stats could I use to prove such subjective and speculative interpretation of random reviewers, each of whom have their own minds and thoughts?

Well, because Pillars 2 kinda flopped didn't it.

Well, it had quite a lot of players. But not many. Less in fact than the first game. But, again, lots of nice positive reviews.

So what gives?

Why didn't the second game IMPROVE on the NUMBERS of the first game? Why did they, in fact, REDUCE.

That doesn't follow the BG and BG2 heritage well at all does it. BG2 was a Phenonium. Pillars seems to have been, erm, a Respectable Attempt?

So what is it that PoE seems to be lacking? And I'm not just talking about personal opinions here. How is it mechanically and factually different to BG2?

My first thought would be things like, but not exclusively, an unfamiliar and untested base system that, while it aims to ape D&D, doesn't really do it in a way BG fans were expecting or being bothered enough to figure out. A loot system that didn't inspire much excitement, you never really spent your time picking flowers in the BG games, you tended to get excited about a bag of gold and a flaming long sword, you know what I mean. A much reduced set of Character Building options, due to the fact that they were starting so much from scratch.

Does PoE therefore emulate either BG1 or BG2 ENOUGH to be considered a True Successor?

Well, if it is, it suggests the actual market for that moniker is actually quite small.

Which definitely is not case.

PoE one could have ended up like BG1, a fondly remembered experiment that led to one of the greatest RPGs of all time. However, PoE2 kinda proved that was never gonna happen didn't it.

As only a reduced percentage of those positive reviews actually converted to numbers and positive reviews for part 2.

Now, PK Kingmaker does have a shot at the BG legacy title.

And yet PK itself does have a lot of actual mechanical differences to BG2. However, where it IS similar, and different from PoE is that: it does indeed have a familar D&D-like base system. And it does indeed have a VAST Character Building retinue. And while its loot is similarly disappointing in parts, it at least still follows the primary objective of being excited by a bag of gold and a flaming sword. Sadly, it still has flower picking, so I would say, and hence why I said earlier, they are both pretty similar in the loot quality department.

And the NUMBERS seem to suggest that MORE people are interested in PK as a whole than PoE. PK has a BUZZ around it that is STRONGER than PoE's ever was.

This suggests that the BG fanbase is making their decision regardless of reviews. Not only are more people playing PK, but more people are interested in seeing where it goes.

At this point in time.

So regarding Div Os 2, which you've been demanding I talk about for so long, well, yes, it's an extremely popular game. It is indeed the currently top of the tree game of all 6 here above discussed, both in reviews and numbers.

However, you seem more interested in using Div Os 2 as a tool to disparage both PK and PK 2, when it's unfair to pit a sequel to a first time game and it's unfair to pit a sequel that been out for a couple for years to a game that only came out less than a moth ago.

Sure, you can pit it against PoE2, but then why bother, there's no competition there. But then why even bring Div Os into a discussion that has arisen because you are offended that people are saying PK is attracting the BG fanbase better than PoE did.

Because for you it's merely a tool for comparing like-for-like QUALITY. But in terms of like-for-like Divinity isn't even competing for nor in the same market as the purely BG fanbase. Divinity is for Divinity fans with a heritage in Ultima and Diablo. And in that regard is proving to be a game of quality AND popularity.

How it competes with PK 2 - we can't possibly comment on that at this point in time.

What we do know at this point in time is that PoE underwhelms PK on popularity and underwhelms Div on percentage positive. Since Div isn't in the running for the Successor title, then I would say that PK has a very credible argument for why it could well be the True Successor.

But BG3 is actually the technically True Successor anyway, so that's all a bit moot anyway. And there's zero point bringing that game into the discussion at this point in time.
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September 22nd, 2021, 18:08
What a long winded way of saying you prefer one game over another.
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September 22nd, 2021, 18:12
I don't know what you are even talking about at this point. It was never about who is a true successor, only about which games are good and which are less good as per general standards of quality. Your post, while long and winded, and very distracting, is also moot. You also keep mistaking quality with popularity, but popularity only interests you until you bump against DOS:2, then the excuses begin again.

How it competes with PK 2 - we can't possibly comment on that at this point in time.
Oh but we can. I understand that it is not convenient to you, but the comparison is very easy to pull off. We can even play in your own field, as you claim DOS2 has no staying power, it is easily forgotten by players who in the future will only have fond memories of Pathfinder, because you've seen this in the tarot cards. And yet DOS2, 4 full years after its release still has over 2500 reviews per month and 93% positive votes, which WotR will never even dream of getting close to. I'll clap in awe if it reaches half the monthly reviews and 10 points less than DOS2 in 4 years. Here is hoping, I did like the game, with all its flaws (some of which I listed in a previous post, and I'm not talking about bugs alone).

All I can say to address this different topic you suddenly brought up to evade the actual one that was being discussed is that if I went to call myself a true successor to BG sporting 75 and 78 user scores (for KM and WotR respectively) my face would fall to the ground in shame. If I was BG, I'd rather die without successors than having that kind of "legacy".

Who knows, maybe Black Geyser will do better. That would be funny.
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September 22nd, 2021, 18:20
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
What a long winded way of saying you prefer one game over another.
Excuse me?

I have no ball in the game.

Edit: would this be your short-winded way of saying that you prefer a particular game and projecting bias onto me is your way of avoiding actually backing up your 'hilarious' one-liner?
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September 22nd, 2021, 18:27
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
I don't know what you are even talking about at this point. It was never about who is a true successor, only about which games are good and which are less good as per general standards of quality.
Well I thank you for bringing up the topic that it was never about then, very useful conversationalist you are.

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
Your post, while long and winded, and very distracting, is also moot. You also keep mistaking quality with popularity, but popularity only interests you until you bump against DOS:2, then the excuses begin again.
Erm, no. You're going to need to quote me specifically when you write something like that. I mean, it's just falsehood by this point.

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
Oh but we can. I understand that it is not convenient to you, but the comparison is very easy to pull off. We can even play in your own field, as you claim DOS2 has no staying power, it is easily forgotten by players who in the future will only have fond memories of Pathfinder, because you've seen this in the tarot cards. And yet DOS2, 4 full years after its release still has over 2500 reviews per month and 93% positive votes, which WotR will never even dream of getting close to. I'll clap in awe if it reaches half the monthly reviews and 10 points less than DOS2 in 4 years. Here is hoping, I did like the game, with all its flaws (some of which I listed in a previous post, and I'm not talking about bugs alone).
Well apparently I haven't been talking about Div Os 2, which was your original complaint. Now that I do and I agree it has both popularity and good scores, you come at me with this crap. Make your mind up.

It's somewhat amazing that I can be both not discussing something and conveniently ignoring it while at the same time including it and saying all this stuff about it. You truly are a fascinating conversationalist.

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
All I can say to address this different topic you suddenly brought up
You mean that part where you brought it up.

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
to evade the actual one that was being discussed is that if I went to call myself a true successor to BG sporting 75 and 78 user scores (for KM and WotR respectively) my face would fall to the ground in shame. If I was BG, I'd rather die without successors than having that kind of "legacy".
Yes, arguing that none of them are the True Spiritual Successor would be an equally valid position. Particularly as BG3 is something that actually exists.

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
Who knows, maybe Black Geyser will do better. That would be funny.
We shall wait and see. I personally doubt it, but you never know.
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September 22nd, 2021, 19:11
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Excuse me?

I have no ball in the game.

Edit: would this be your short-winded way of saying that you prefer a particular game and projecting bias onto me is your way of avoiding actually backing up your 'hilarious' one-liner?
Then what's the point of this post? Why do you care if Pathfinder has a lower score than the other games you mention? Why do you care which game gets forgotten and which gets remembered as "The One True Baldur's Gate SuccessorTM"? If you like the game you, like it; if you don't, you don't.
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September 22nd, 2021, 19:18
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
Then what's the point of this post? Why do you care if Pathfinder has a lower score than the other games you mention? Why do you care which game gets forgotten and which gets remembered as "The One True Baldur's Gate Successorâ„¢"? If you like the game you, like it; if you don't, you don't.
Because Nereida was making the point that the only thing that matters with regards to a game's objective quality was its review score and percentage of positive reviews.

Which I believe to be factually incorrect. Hence I provided my workings for why I believe that, to which I believe longevity proves that socres and percentage positive is but one data set to be considered when assessing a game's objective quality.

I have tried to remain factual and unemotional.

Take, for example, this fact:



RPGwatch's very own game of the decade poll (ignore Myrthos' typo, it's 2010-2020).

Now this has relevance to all of us, was voted on by all of us, and provides a very clear factual indication of what a specific and dedicated RPG community of varied and representative RPG players thinks is long term quality.

And it, again, backs up everything I have said.

Because that's where the facts do seem to point to. PoE DOES seem to be lacking something. Div Os DIDN'T compete for top spot.

And PK and DIV Os 2 are actually EQUAL in quality, in the eyes of those who actually matter on the topic of objective game quality assessment.
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September 22nd, 2021, 19:38
That's true, you have been saying all along that The Witcher 3 and Skyrim were two of the best, most pure RPGs of all time.
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September 22nd, 2021, 19:48
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
That's true, you have been saying all along that The Witcher 3 and Skyrim were two of the best, most pure RPGs of all time.
I think you may want to read the first post again. That was never the point of the discussion.

The point has been, simply put, that the scores do not necessarily reflect the games' quality and other elements are important too.
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September 22nd, 2021, 19:54
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
I think you may want to read the first post again. That was never the point of the discussion.

The point has been, simply put, that the scores do not necessarily reflect the games' quality and other elements are important too.
I haven't misunderstood anything. I'm mocking him and his propensity for cherry picking, even when what he's cherry picking from is a chart we can all see. He's using an RPGWatch poll to "prove" that Kingmaker receiving more votes than Pillars of Eternity means it's a "true successor" to Baldur's Gate or whatever it is he's arguing at any given moment. Well, Skyrim did too. The Witcher 3 received considerably more votes than that.

And as I actually do know, he doesn't consider either game a "real" RPG. He can hold in his brain that when it comes to Kingmaker vs D:OS2 that the "eyes of those who actually matter on the topic of objective game quality assessment" means something, but simultaneously are completely (in his view) off base when it comes to evaluating Skyrim or The Witcher 3, based on the exact same data.

There's nothing "simply put" about his arguments. You may have YOUR arguments, but by your seeming blanket agreement with him, you're also adopting all of his arguments, like that flower picking is a disqualifier for RPG quality, or that you can tell how loudly people are "beating the drum" for a game outside of things one can actually measure like player base or reviews.
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September 22nd, 2021, 20:01
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Because Nereida was making the point that the only thing that matters with regards to a game's objective quality was its review score and percentage of positive reviews.

Which I believe to be factually incorrect. Hence I provided my workings for why I believe that, to which I believe longevity proves that socres and percentage positive is but one data set to be considered when assessing a game's objective quality.

I have tried to remain factual and unemotional.

Take, for example, this fact:

[Enter RPGWatch votes on some random poll]

Aha, I understand now.

So here is the full story.

I was in a tour through the old west, and ended up in a godforsaken village in the middle of nowhere, called Parappaland, built upon the husk of an old war, with barely 200 inhabitants. I was extremely hungry, and for some reason, I felt like tacos. It's an acquired taste of mine, kinda niche, but hey, it's becoming more popular lately.

So I was told, coincidentally, this village does have a tacos restaurant! This fortune of mine, I exclaimed with glee. It didn't take long to find the restaurant. It was old, lacked maintenance. kind of abandoned, really. The boards showed remnants of past messages that weren't in the menu anymore, the tables cracked, dull with the passage of time.

A single waitress tried to keep the place tidy, to no avail, but she did try, which I appreciated. Three other customers sat, all way older than me, and I'm not a teenager precisely. I found that odd, but still, I was hungry. I'm sure they wouldn't mind, even though one of the customers seemed to go out of his way to harass me, for some reason. Perhaps he didn't like my way of dressing, or my British accent. I can't tell. I wouldn't bother the manager with it, I just wanted to eat.

As I sat, the chef came to receive me and pointed out "Buenos dias, amiga. Here we serve the best tacos of the world, just so you know!".

I rose my eyebrow, my interest piqued. I told them "I do not doubt you, viejo. But the best tacos are made in Mexico and Texas, that's a world-wide consensus of every worthy food guide that was every published."

The chef showed a sleazy smile and spoke, I must admit, with certain charisma. It would impress those that were easily impressionable.

"Well, mexican tacos are great. Texas… not bad. But Parappaland tacos are just as good, if not better. Right?" As he pushed a plate with messy, undercooked tacos that really looked like a fair attempt, but were nothing like the real thing, he looked at the other customers that were sat there, not really eating, just hanging about, because it was a fine place to hang about, just like any other. To them, I imagine, it was more about making friends than eating tacos. The poor guys quickly nodded, with a nervous smile.

- "See?!" - said the chef. Just as good as Mexican or Texan. - "My friends here just confirmed it. They are actually based on the glorious 20-year old recipe that has never been repeated before. Texas and Mexico tried, but the real taste, you can only find it here." - He assured.

And so I tried the tacos. The first one was simply inedible. I've tried hundreds of tacos in my life, even the ones in Texas and Mexico. This was nothing of the sort. Still points for trying, I guess. The second one was "alright". Still undercooked, still weird in taste, too much pointless meat and not enough spice, but I managed to finish it. I would rate them something beteen 7.3 and 7.8 out of a scale of 10. I'd say, I've eaten worse tacos, definitely.

I was about to walk out when the chef said "Amiga, no te olvides. Here in Parappaland, the best tacos of the world. Just as good as the tacos from Texas and Mexico."

And so I left.

From that day, it became clear to me.

Parappaland tacos are the best tacos in the world. The sleazy guy and his three friends can confirm it.
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September 22nd, 2021, 20:04
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I haven't misunderstood anything. I'm mocking him and his propensity for cherry picking, even when what he's cherry picking from is a chart we can all see. He's using an RPGWatch poll to "prove" that Kingmaker receiving more votes than Pillars of Eternity means it's a "true successor" to Baldur's Gate or whatever it is he's arguing at any given moment. Well, Skyrim did too. The Witcher 3 received considerably more votes than that.

And as I actually do know, he doesn't consider either game a "real" RPG. He can hold in his brain that when it comes to Kingmaker vs D:OS2 that the "eyes of those who actually matter on the topic of objective game quality assessment" means something, but simultaneously are completely (in his view) off base when it comes to evaluating Skyrim or The Witcher 3, based on the exact same data.

There's nothing "simply put" about his arguments. You may have YOUR arguments, but by your seeming blanket agreement with him, you're also adopting all of his arguments, like that flower picking is a disqualifier for RPG quality, or that you can tell you loudly people are "beating the drum" for a game outside of things one can actually measure like player base or reviews.
This isn't a "what is an RPG" thread, it's a "what constitutes evidence of A GAME's quality". For heaven's sake. That's why we've been repeating the phrase LIKE-FOR-LIKE throughout. For crying out loud.
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RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » The context and long-term relevance of scores as a means to refence quality
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