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January 27th, 2019, 01:20
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
You linked a 22 year old article that doesn't seem to relate to anything I've said - and you're somehow expecting me to agree with your nonsensical claims because of that?
At this point, if I linked ones that were newer, would that make a difference?

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January 27th, 2019, 01:22
I have a digestion prob. Have been in hospital too often. The only advantage, I guess, is my weight.
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January 27th, 2019, 01:23
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
At this point, if I linked ones that were newer, would that make a difference?

One programmer to another:

You want me to link you an article that talks about what happens when there's a significant calorie deficit in your body? Seriously?

Why don't you try Googling "how to lose weight" - and see if you can find an article that DOES NOT recommend a calorie deficit.

If you find one, then maybe you have a future as the next Trump advisor

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January 27th, 2019, 01:25
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
I have a digestion prob. Have been in hospital too often. The only advantage, I guess, is my weight.
You're confusing me. Are you saying you have a healthy BMI because of poor digestion - but you don't actually believe that consuming fewer calories has had any effect on your weight?

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January 27th, 2019, 01:25
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Also, BMI? Isn't that a bit old-school. Isn't there some kind of modern scientific measurement that's actually relevant?
Hm, yes, now that you mention it, I vaguely remember it.
After BMI they thought it was more important measuring the tummy. And after that they discovered something else - which I forgot.
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January 27th, 2019, 01:26
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Hm, yes, now that you mention it, I vaguely remember it.
After BMI they thought it was more important measuring the tummy. And after that they discovered something else - which I forgot.
Actually, I agree. BMI is highly imprecise. For instance, while I do have a healthy BMI - it should be much lower in terms of estimating fat, because I have a fair amount of muscle mass.

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January 27th, 2019, 01:33
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
You're confusing me. Are you saying you have a healthy BMI because of poor digestion - but you don't actually believe that consuming fewer calories has had any effect on your weight?
Ha. Restricting my calories I gain weight. Eating too much calories I end up in agony on the ER, as well as getting diarrhoea for days. You know what happens when people get diarrhoea? They certainly do not gain weight.
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January 27th, 2019, 01:39
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Ha. Restricting my calories I gain weight. Eating too much calories I end up in agony on the ER, as well as getting diarrhoea for days. You know what happens when people get diarrhoea? They certainly do not gain weight.
Restricting your calories doesn't mean consuming less than you burn. You're telling me that your BMI is healthy because of your digestive problem, which doesn't make the slightest sense in this context.

I assume you understand that we're not talking about gaining or losing actual weight - but about gaining or burning fat?

If not, then it's an entirely different discussion.

Just tell me this: If you ate a ton of junk food each day - and you were able to retain and digest it, do you believe you would lose fat?

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January 27th, 2019, 02:51
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Restricting your calories doesn't mean consuming less than you burn. You're telling me that your BMI is healthy because of your digestive problem, which doesn't make the slightest sense in this context.

I assume you understand that we're not talking about gaining or losing actual weight - but about gaining or burning fat?
If I eat a lot of fat, even when being lazy as hell, I burn a lot of body fat and muscle tissue because nothing gets ingested. All the fats and with it all the other important stuff like vitamins and minerals, are speeding through my intestines to end up floating in the toilet.

It takes a lot of time to gain weight again, and more important to gain some muscle tissue again. (When losing a lot of weight in a short period of time your body starts eating itself.) While trying to regain some of the lost weight/muscles I am constantly hungry for my intestines hardly accept anything after having had such a blow, almost anything gets me running to the toilet again.
Yet my body is craving for calories, which in my case makes perfect sense. I am trying to eat as much as I can, but when getting the feeling of having a full stomach, almost to the level I am getting nauseous, I still get that signal from my intestines: we want more food! Which fits in perfectly with the recent discoveries: secretion of several hormones (in intestines, and from fat cells elsewhere).

But I am a very peculiar case. I think it would be best to leave a strange case out of this discussion.

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
If not, then it's an entirely different discussion.

Just tell me this: If you ate a ton of junk food each day - and you were able to retain and digest it, do you believe you would lose fat?
Some do not get chubby/fat, when eating what others do who get chubby/fat - not talking about obese here. Obese has a lot to do with refined foods, as far as I know.

But we were talking about losing fat. From the day we wore animal skins our body is focused on being very economical, it uses tricks to not lose fat. That, in those days, could mean the difference between surviving a food shortage or dying. When the body loses fat it is set on getting back to the previous weight, by slowing down all sorts of processes to save energy so that more calories will be stored as fat, and by changing the hormones secreted. Fat cells for instance make the hormone ‘leptin’, that tells your brain you have had enough food. When losing fat you have less leptin: you feel hungry. So when losing weight you have more appetite and burn less than before when being fat.
There are other hormones and factors as well.

Doing a simple calculation of calories is simply not the whole story.
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Last edited by Eye; January 27th, 2019 at 03:19.
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January 27th, 2019, 08:46
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
You want me to link you an article that talks about what happens when there's a significant calorie deficit in your body? Seriously?

Why don't you try Googling "how to lose weight" - and see if you can find an article that DOES NOT recommend a calorie deficit.

If you find one, then maybe you have a future as the next Trump advisor
That was never the argument. I can link you thousands of articles on how to re-connect your wifi.

ME: There's a lot of factors causing your WIFI to disconnect

YOU: There's only one way to connect to WIFI

ME: I agree with you. There's only one way to connect to WIFI. But why it's disconnecting, and keeping it connected is still a problem.

YOU: It's common sense. All you need to do is connect to WIFI. If you disconnect again, just connect to WIFI. If you don't stay connected to WIFI, then you're not trying hard enough to connect to WIFI. This is what I do, therefore it is the same for everyone.

ME: Dude…
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January 27th, 2019, 11:37
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Oh, so it's only ignorant doctors with next to zero experience recommending that people watch what they eat? Right
If that is all they consider, yes, they are ignorant.
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January 31st, 2019, 16:57
Published yesterday in Nature, an article called “Gut immune cells have a role in food metabolism”

But perhaps it is easier to read the news article of Medical Xpress about that article published in Nature, called “Intestinal immune cells play key role in metabolic regulation, cardiovascular health”

A Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) research team has identified what appears to be an important checkpoint in dietary metabolism, a group of cells in the small intestine that slow down metabolism, increasing the amount of ingested food that is stored as fat rather than being quickly converted into energy. In the report published in Nature they find that mice lacking these cells can consume diets high in fat and sugar without developing conditions like obesity, diabetes, hypertension and heart disease.

"After you eat, your body can convert energy into heat and burn it quickly or it can convert the food into fat and store it for later use," says Filip Swirski, Ph.D., of the MGH Center for Systems Biology, senior author of the Nature paper. "We often speak of people who have a 'high metabolism' and seem to be able to eat whatever they want without gaining weight, while others struggle with obesity. These cells, which are known for their function in the immune system, also appear to play an important role in that metabolic choice."
[…]
The MGH team initially found that mice lacking the gene for integrin β7 and fed a normal diet gained equal amounts of weight as did a group of control animals, even though the β7-negative animals ate more food and were equally as active. Metabolic testing indicated that the β7-negative mice converted more food into energy, suggesting they had a higher basal metabolism. They also burned more glucose in brown fat, were more glucose tolerant, had lower triglyceride levels and better fat tolerance than did control mice.

To investigate whether these benefits persisted under nutritional conditions known to induce the metabolic syndrome—a group of symptoms associated with type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease—they fed both β7-negative mice and control mice a diet high in fat, sugar and sodium. The β7-negative mice remained lean, glucose tolerant, and did not develop hypertension or other typical results of a high-fat diet. The control mice did become obese, with elevated blood pressure and reduced glucose tolerance.

Experiments with a mouse model genetically programmed to develop elevated cholesterol found that blocking β7 expression in the bone marrow, where immune cells are generated, maintained normal lipid levels in the animals, in spite of their being fed a high-cholesterol diet. Mice with β7-negative marrow excreted more cholesterol, had improved glucose tolerance and were less likely to develop arterial plaques and other cardiovascular risk factors than were animals with normal bone marrow expression of β7.

A search for the cells responsible for β7's metabolic impact revealed that the protein's expression was highest in a group of T cells present in the lining of the small intestine.
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Last edited by Eye; January 31st, 2019 at 18:08.
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February 3rd, 2019, 20:12
Some do not get chubby/fat, when eating what others do who get chubby/fat - not talking about obese here. Obese has a lot to do with refined foods, as far as I know.

But we were talking about losing fat. From the day we wore animal skins our body is focused on being very economical, it uses tricks to not lose fat. That, in those days, could mean the difference between surviving a food shortage or dying. When the body loses fat it is set on getting back to the previous weight, by slowing down all sorts of processes to save energy so that more calories will be stored as fat, and by changing the hormones secreted. Fat cells for instance make the hormone ‘leptin’, that tells your brain you have had enough food. When losing fat you have less leptin: you feel hungry. So when losing weight you have more appetite and burn less than before when being fat.
There are other hormones and factors as well.

Doing a simple calculation of calories is simply not the whole story.
You're dodging the question.

Doing a simple calculation of calories is simply not the whole story.
No one is saying that doing math alone is going to help you lose weight.

I'm struggling to appreciate how anyone with the slightest sense could possibly deny that eating more calories than you burn will, inevitably, result in weight gain - all other things being equal.

To me, it's like explaining to people that if you jump into water, you're going to get wet - and hearing them say "but are you not following the latest scientific evidence to suggest there are other factors at play?".

I mean… so?

I can set it up in any scenario that will force what I'm saying into the undeniable. Like, if you stopped eating entirely for a month - what do you think would happen?

Have you looked at photos from concentration camps during WW2? Did you notice how every…. single… prisoner was extremely thin and skeletal?

Do you think the latest scientific evidence changes that kind of reality? Because I don't.

In any case, if you really want to believe that other factors play a larger role than burning more calories than you consume - then so be it.

Do note that I'm not denying other factors are at play - or that genetic differences can change how our metabolism works. That's why I would never claim a simple calculation will always result in the same thing for the same people.

My claim from the very beginning has been that if you burn more calories than you eat - you will lose fat. But it's not the same math for every person in the world.

With that said, you can establish some very, very reasonable estimates for 95% of the population using rather simplistic formulas.

Again, you can Google "weight loss" - and you'll find this extremely basic concept over and over again. Even in the modern age of endless dietary alternatives - they all tend to mention that calories are key in the end.

This is based on endless empirical research and years of experience - from pure scientists to extremely successful life coaches.

They all seem to agree with me.

In this case, there really isn't much of a mystery - unless you want to drown yourself in minutiae to avoid looking at cold, hard facts.

Your research article involving mice doesn't change anything about this. Again, I've never said every person has the exact same metabolism. I've known people who "seem" to be able to eat anything they want without gaining weight. Well, that's until you actually pay attention to what they're doing in life.

There's not a single human being on Earth who can go without food for a month and gain fat.

Meaning, I'm 100% correct - and there's no article that you can find to dispute it - not even a bullshit article.

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February 3rd, 2019, 20:15
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
That was never the argument. I can link you thousands of articles on how to re-connect your wifi.

ME: There's a lot of factors causing your WIFI to disconnect

YOU: There's only one way to connect to WIFI

ME: I agree with you. There's only one way to connect to WIFI. But why it's disconnecting, and keeping it connected is still a problem.

YOU: It's common sense. All you need to do is connect to WIFI. If you disconnect again, just connect to WIFI. If you don't stay connected to WIFI, then you're not trying hard enough to connect to WIFI. This is what I do, therefore it is the same for everyone.

ME: Dude…
I'm afraid I don't see how that analogy applies.

If you consistently burn more calories than you eat, you will lose fat. That is 100% truth and it's undeniable.

Meaning, you can't burn more calories one day - and than eat more calories the next day. It has to be consistent, obviously.

However, what you might be talking about is that some people seem to burn more calories with less activity than others - which is not in dispute.

That can make it tricky for some people to accurately calculate - but it's rarely that hard if you accept the time it takes to adjust and measure.

What's hard is to stop eating and to be precise about what's in your food. That takes a lot of effort - and that's almost exclusively where things go wrong when people fail to lose weight using this simplest of methods.

They either don't make enough of an effort - or they overlook a lot of calories.

Of course, fairy tales of being that one unfortunate individual who has to have the slowest metabolism ever is an extremely common explanation I've heard from countless people who've failed to lose weight.

Maybe it was some kind of factor in some of the cases, though it would be quite the coincidence if it was true for them all.

But being a factor changes nothing about the inevitable fat loss if you stick to it - and you simply consume fewer calories.

Yes, the body can be stubborn - and once you reach a certain amount of fat, the last of it will really struggle to hold on - for whatever reason.

But's almost never the issue, because it's not a big problem once you get to that point.

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