Larian Studios - Swen on his obsession with Ultima VII

PC Gamer interviewed Swen Vincke about his obsession with Ultima VII.

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Satisfaction still eludes Vincke, though--who believes that Larian's games have yet to match his inspiration's unrestrained freedom. Even now, with Baldur's Gate III, the studio is still squeezing in features from Ultima VII--such as the stackable crates that can be climbed between different levels, like clumsy staircases.

"Maybe it's my imagination that exaggerates it now, but I remember scouring every single screen [of Ultima VII] trying to find clues, and often there were," he says. "Players should always be rewarded for their exploration: it's a lesson that we teach our designers today." Vincke sometimes sees those designers playing Ultima VII - a younger generation trying to understand the relic their boss never stops going on about. "I tease the programmers," he says. "'Well, you could do it in Ultima VII, I don't see why you can't do it with your team today.'"

Crate staircases aside, though, Vincke isn't looking to recreate the mechanics of Ultima VII - rather the platonic ideal associated with it. "Ultima VII did a whole bunch of things badly," he admits. "I only remember the things it did really well. We're shooting more for the feeling. That sense of entering a world where anything is possible, limited only by my own creativity. That strong motivation to do things because there's a storyline driving me forward, and that agency to impact all the denizens of that world."

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More information.

Nice to know his love for Ultima 7 has got others in his company discovering it for themselves; that game should be experienced by everybody creating RPGs.

shamroxor said:

Nice to know his love for Ultima 7 has got others in his company discovering it for themselves; that game should be experienced by everybody creating RPGs.

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Yes - with one exception: the combat system.

So sad that Lord British was unceremoniously killed by that gold plaque in U7.
Don't fret; there's a new king among us. All hail Lord Belgian.

Glad to see this article… gives a little more hope that “the rpg of all rpgs (in the spirit of u7)” is still to come…

HiddenX said:

Yes - with one exception: the combat system.

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Yeah, fights were a clusterf*ck and your party needed constant feeding but nothings perfect! Turn based combat in Ultima 7 would have been amazing!

Yeah, the combat system in Ultima seven left much to be desire. Still, although it's a big letdown, that is literally the only weak point in the game. It's nice to see someone pick an actual good game as their current measuring stick.

Once again to many old timers with rose colored glasses.

It's been well known for years that Swen has a soft spot for Ultima VII. Even during the Divine Divinity days you could see the influence on that game in its game world object interactivity and simulationism despite having a combat system more akin to Diablo II. Certainly this tradition continued more overtly in Original Sin as well.

I'm glad that he's gently teasing his programmers about what was possible in Ultima VII. Pity that doesn't apparently extend to night/day cycle and NPC schedules though. Even BG3 doesn't have this yet which is a bit odd.

"Ultima VII did a whole bunch of things badly,"

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Area of effects?

Pessimeister said:

Pity that doesn't apparently extend to night/day cycle and NPC schedules though. Even BG3 doesn't have this yet which is a bit odd.

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As much as I'd love those, I understand how much of a headache it would be tying it to all the other variables in their games. It may have to wait for advances in machine learning to take the brunt of calculating that amount of data - something which I find more exciting for the future of immersive games than advances in graphics.

shamroxor said:

As much as I'd love those, I understand how much of a headache it would be tying it to all the other variables in their games. It may have to wait for advances in machine learning to take the brunt of calculating that amount of data - something which I find more exciting for the future of immersive games than advances in graphics.

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It's not too complex indeed (I assume it was irony? ), and many already implement this, Baldur's Gate already had both, Skyrim too, and Pathfinder: Kingmaker (NPCs remain static though). Well, they do need to find at least a place NPCs can rest, so there's a bit of work.

Not sure why Larian's recent games avoided it. Perhaps they feel it doesn't add something to the gameplay. When it's night, you have to wait for the day, annoying. A fun game would avoid that.

Perhaps they're afraid people would complain or fail to complete quests because such or such NPC cannot be found (because it's night)?

Or maybe it's just the additional work of managing the state, extra path and schedule (I don't think so), and stopping the never-ending loop dialogs at night. Yes, that last bit is probably the most difficult for them

Most probably a combination of all that, versus a questionable advantage.

Instead, they decided in BG3 that the night happened during a long rest.

shamroxor said:

As much as I'd love those, I understand how much of a headache it would be tying it to all the other variables in their games. It may have to wait for advances in machine learning to take the brunt of calculating that amount of data - something which I find more exciting for the future of immersive games than advances in graphics.

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How would you apply machine learning to that?

And yes BG also had it. And while it takes more development time imho you get enough back.

Yeah, day-night cycle and NPC schedules would definitely be nice. I think it adds a lot to the world as far as atmosphere and immersion goes.

Look at Gothic 2 where NPCs went to the bar in the evening, and to bed at night.

Redglyph said:

When it's night, you have to wait for the day, annoying. A fun game would avoid that.

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Well that's purely subjective of course. Lots of fun things can occur at night if enough events, interesting encounters or quest elements are implemented for it. In Baldur's Gate you could especially have a great time with stealth at night and the ambience during these moments was often fantastic. You could also get up to some naughty tasks with the Avatar at night in Ultima VII.

I'd make the argument that if a game wants to be considered the successor to a long celebrated series, then it should generally endeavour to cover most of the well known elements the games are celebrated for and even innovate where possible.

It's therefore no surprise why Ultima VII continues to be held up in such high regard. Not all of its aspects of virtual world simulationism have been surpassed or superceded.

Pessimeister said:

I'd make the argument that if a game wants to be considered the successor to a long celebrated series, then it should generally endeavour to cover most of the well known elements the games are celebrated for and even innovate where possible.

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Exactly.
Same with the locked companion choice (if that's still in).

Pessimeister said:

Well that's purely subjective of course. Lots of fun things can occur at night if enough events, interesting encounters or quest elements are implemented for it.

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Personally I entirely agree with you, and I'd also like to see NPCs following a schedule. I found it interesting in Skyrim, when someone was not available and if I couldn't or wouldn't wake him/her up, then I had to see if I could advance in another quest. And maybe use the night as cover, as you said.

My comment was an attempt at being objective and understanding what Larian's motive could possibly be. I'm pretty sure it's not only a technical limitation or the little extra work it would require. Day and night lighting is already there, and adding a NPC sleeping bags would be enough in most cases. In Skyrim some NPCs would actually walk home, which means extra buildings had to be made, or at least made habitable. But some simply had a bed in the same or another room.

BG3 doesn't even have any notion of time. So it's always daytime, and when the user starts a long rest, the party is magically teleported to the fixed camp location, against all logic, and night falls immediately. When they wake up, it's day again. The game could use time as an interesting strategic decision on when to sleep, if the party could sleep where it should - at their current location. They would need to adapt to the enemy races living in the proximity, for example near goblins they would rather sleep during the day to avoid bad surprises, unless they need to sneak into their lair for a quest.

One can always dream

EDIT: saying all that, I think we would appreciate it, but I doubt it's for the wider audience they're used to have. Anything that hinders progression or slows it down has a tendancy to be removed. Combats already take a lot of time.

Couchpotato said:

Once again to many old timers with rose colored glasses.

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haha - yeah, since U7 arrived when we were young married couple and I was not gaming much, it wasn't until a decade later that I played it, and so I had to deal with the not-great things and how it had aged rather than the wonders of playing it when new. Always a tough challenge - seeing what was great upon release when you are struggling with how poorly some main systems have aged.

Morrandir said:

How would you apply machine learning to that?

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I'm looking forward to what tricks developers will use when advances in graphics aren't enough to grab the headlines.
If they can get the program to take care of how many loaves of bread are made in the local bakery, how many npcs desire loaves that morning, if any npcs are likely to riot if denied loaves, how many guards are around to deal with the riot etc then track the inventories of the dead bodies after the riot, the families of the dead now hungry cos no loaves :lol:
The possibilities are endless if all that reactivity can be offloaded to a 'virtual developer' working within a bunch of rules set up by the human developers.
It's crazy developments like that I'm looking forward to!

Great game but hate the combat and the dungeons.