Drakensang? Meh
- Thread starter BillSeurer
- Start date
Ha ok, well it wasn't that unpleasant, I just lived a little moment in science fiction with time travel or parallel words.
Lol when playing TRoT i said myself that not much young will support the game, despite the good location jump system.I hope everybody remembered to speed up the walking with the help of an SQL editor.
I never changed it in Drakensang and will probably be too lazy for that to change it in TRoT. But is changing this change also monsters speed? If yes, I'm not sure I want it. If not it's a bit cheating. I escape a pack of wolf by fleeing but it was very close, if my speed had been higher and not the speed of the wolves that would have been less hot.
EDIT: Also the time to run help a companion during a fight can be an important parameter. Reinforcing the cheating of changing this.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
Yesterday I bought Drakensang Gold, and I replayed this sequence.
My verdict is this : You can sneak past most of the wolves successfully; by wandering on a small ridge that goes directly from behind the hunterer's cottage/house towards the place where the white she-wolf should be.
She indeed only appears after a number of wolves had been killed, but in my case I managed to do it so that it was only 4 until she arrived.
I don't know why, but Drakensang actually speaks of a female white wolf.
human_male
Math and girls is hard.
It goes down hill at the end actually. Every now and again I remember the game fondly and think about playing it again. Then I remember all that dungeon crawling in the end, tediously killing tides of stupid groms or whatever, then that stupid battle on the mountain top, trying to destroy portals while more monsters kept spawning in all the time, and worse of all having to wear that ridiculouse gold armour!
Dwagginz
Tea Addict
Ah, Drakensang. I think my opinion has kinda changed recently, and I'll explain why.
It's not a game for those who struggle with RPGs. The ruleset isn't easy and doesn't get made easier by a mediocre translation. Trying to work out if another weapon is better isn't simple, especially if you're the sort of RPG player who knows that, in D&D, a Longsword +2 is better than a Longsword +1 but hasn't the foggiest idea why.
Visually I think it's good, but it's incredibly barebones. There's no character customisation (Minor fault) and the the animations are a little strange (Especially the change in facial expression when equipped with a weapon).
But it's the gameplay that's really hit me and made me realise that I won't succeed with Drakensang, at least not now. Even on easy, it's incredibly unforgiving. It's not like most D&D games where you can just blunder your way through; Make even a few mistakes in combat and you've had it. It could have benefitted, IMHO, from a basic automated system for your companions. A fight against a rat could, if you choose every attack etc yourself, take ridiculously long and be quite hard.
I have an Amazon, a Dwarf, a.. Uh... Something (Rogue, maybe) and a caster (Gladys, forgot her class), and I'm struggling against a rat? What on Earth is this madness? I remember the quest under the chapel with those ooze things, too, that was ridiculously hard.
Basically, I think Drakensang is a game that had a lot of potential and was really well made, but it suffers from a complex ruleset, high difficulty and to top it off, it struggles to draw you in.
I don't like it as much as I'd made myself think I do, but I do have a soft spot for it and one day I hope I'll be able to grasp TDE/DSA and get through it.
It's not a game for those who struggle with RPGs. The ruleset isn't easy and doesn't get made easier by a mediocre translation. Trying to work out if another weapon is better isn't simple, especially if you're the sort of RPG player who knows that, in D&D, a Longsword +2 is better than a Longsword +1 but hasn't the foggiest idea why.
Visually I think it's good, but it's incredibly barebones. There's no character customisation (Minor fault) and the the animations are a little strange (Especially the change in facial expression when equipped with a weapon).
But it's the gameplay that's really hit me and made me realise that I won't succeed with Drakensang, at least not now. Even on easy, it's incredibly unforgiving. It's not like most D&D games where you can just blunder your way through; Make even a few mistakes in combat and you've had it. It could have benefitted, IMHO, from a basic automated system for your companions. A fight against a rat could, if you choose every attack etc yourself, take ridiculously long and be quite hard.
I have an Amazon, a Dwarf, a.. Uh... Something (Rogue, maybe) and a caster (Gladys, forgot her class), and I'm struggling against a rat? What on Earth is this madness? I remember the quest under the chapel with those ooze things, too, that was ridiculously hard.
Basically, I think Drakensang is a game that had a lot of potential and was really well made, but it suffers from a complex ruleset, high difficulty and to top it off, it struggles to draw you in.
I don't like it as much as I'd made myself think I do, but I do have a soft spot for it and one day I hope I'll be able to grasp TDE/DSA and get through it.
It's quite possible that Drakensang tend to struggle drag the players in. But really gave up because of the fights is too bad.
Yes there are more tricky fights than usual but modern RPG tend have too easy fights that you beat mechanically without to really think of it. The Rats dungeon is rude and should not be made too soon and the final fight in this dungeon is very difficult but it's an optional fight, there's also some optional fights in DAO that are very rude. Myself I attempted the Rats dungeon and then gave up and came back later. For me it's a good dungeon but the different rats should have more different look and overall the dungeon should have more diversified monsters, even if as I quoted before I think the fights patterns are very diversified in this dungeon.
The ruleset is very new for many RPG players but once you have understand how get the in game detailed help, you'll discover it isn't that hard to understand. For me it's been a strong plus because it was refreshing to have something a bit new. I'd say the flaw here isn't really the ruleset but more that the in game help isn't obvious to get and perhaps some more in game help would have help.
Myself I think Drakensang could struggle drag you in because of different reasons. The story and writing is solid, there's some companions well developed and attaching during some parts of the adventure. But overall the game doesn't push high your passion and curiosity to know what happen next. Companions could get attaching but not that much and all are relatively passive but during some parts of the game. The story can be cool and some part are even quite good, but it's not enough to glue the player and force him not give up until he knows the end. The companions can become attaching but not enough to make you leave them a too much regret so you end glued to the game.
The game is also missing high end skills making you very curious to try them later when you are higher level.
Yes there are more tricky fights than usual but modern RPG tend have too easy fights that you beat mechanically without to really think of it. The Rats dungeon is rude and should not be made too soon and the final fight in this dungeon is very difficult but it's an optional fight, there's also some optional fights in DAO that are very rude. Myself I attempted the Rats dungeon and then gave up and came back later. For me it's a good dungeon but the different rats should have more different look and overall the dungeon should have more diversified monsters, even if as I quoted before I think the fights patterns are very diversified in this dungeon.
The ruleset is very new for many RPG players but once you have understand how get the in game detailed help, you'll discover it isn't that hard to understand. For me it's been a strong plus because it was refreshing to have something a bit new. I'd say the flaw here isn't really the ruleset but more that the in game help isn't obvious to get and perhaps some more in game help would have help.
Myself I think Drakensang could struggle drag you in because of different reasons. The story and writing is solid, there's some companions well developed and attaching during some parts of the adventure. But overall the game doesn't push high your passion and curiosity to know what happen next. Companions could get attaching but not that much and all are relatively passive but during some parts of the game. The story can be cool and some part are even quite good, but it's not enough to glue the player and force him not give up until he knows the end. The companions can become attaching but not enough to make you leave them a too much regret so you end glued to the game.
The game is also missing high end skills making you very curious to try them later when you are higher level.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
This describes very nicely one of my many problems in trying to understand (A)D&D.
If you mean this "monster rat" at the end of the cellar deep within the brewery … It's indended to be so. It's part of the joke, because nobody expects that.
And those "ooze things" are giant amoebias - the equivalent to those giant gelateneous things I know from (A)D&D. I think I saw them already in a few (A)D&D-based C-RPGs, but I don't remember anymore, where.
And yes, they are difficult to beat. Everybody learns that, sooner or later.
The founders of TDE had translated some works of D&D for the German market first, until they had been approched by a book publisher who really wanted a German RPG, but found the license for D&D too cost-intensive.
Hence you might find a few similarities. Although not many anmore, since TDE has heavily evolved from that.
Personally, not familiar with (A)D&D at all, I found the rule set complex first, too.
Besides, most German players seem to LOVE pen & peper TDE BECAUSE of its complexity.
I really don't like it that way, because for me it's far too complex, which is hy I tend to return rather to TDE 3rd edition, but I'm too tired to write my opinion in the official forum anymore, because it is full of complexity lovers or so it appears to me), and EVERYONE loves it that way. So, other opinions don't count there much more. And that even, lthough some people at least realized that the complexity might be a turn-off for pen & paper newbies.
I don't know.
Edit : It might also be a case of different "gaming cultures". I have read from a speech at the GDC ? of the Bigpoint chief that europeans tend to rather be thinking players, meanwhile international players are rather tending towards action.
I think there might be some truth in it, but I can't say, how much.
But if so, then Drakensang kind of reflects what German players might like.
In terms of complexity.
THis sounds a bit strange, but I think that TDE in general isn't much designed to be "high-end". I have the suspicion that this might be something players of (A)D&D are just used to, because it's in there (and DAO is imho nothing but a good copy of the (A)D&D rule set), so, players might expect this from other games as well.
It might be a matter of … habit.
Last edited:
Mmm not really the point, even less because I'm not a fan of AD&D ruleset. It's just a basic trick. Any RPG use the trick through character evolution, there's the implicit curiosity, how my character will behave with more strength but low dexterity, and so on. It's juts that some RPG makes it more concrete than other and I think it's a sort of detail that help keep in some players.
For example in Drakensang, there's constantly new summon for the same summon spell as the spell power increase. As the spell strength is limited by character level, it generates the curiosity: what will be next summons and how they'll behave.
But also Drakensang didn't exploit it much because most of the skills can be learned very soon from one class or another. Only some rare spells appear later in the game, but the game shows not hint that there' those new spells coming later.
Sure many skills can be improved and this require a higher level character. But it's just abstract improvement, not much to increase the curiosity.
There's different approach to make more concrete this character evolution and to increase player curiosity. One very classical is the kill tree. A typical example could be Titan Quest. Despite the game was tedious for me, I played it a lot longer just to see the last skills in action.
In my opinion one of the best approach to make more concrete the character evolution and increase curiosity is the Dungeon Lords approach. With first tiers class, then second tier sub class choice with skills and special powers associated, then the third tier sub class choice with also skills and powers associated. Not to mention the ability to mix.
Drakensang class system is just a bit too flat in its organization to really make really concrete such player expectation. Don't deduce I'm thinking it isn't that good. For me it is quite good and hugely better than AD&D system, at least how I see it implemented in some computer games.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
Dwagginz
Tea Addict
No, I mean that I have 2 very capable warriors, a not bad fighter and a mage, and these rats are giving me a hard time (It also goes for the ones in the sewer and the brewery). That, IMHO, isn't good game design, and the same goes for the blobs in the temple. They're essential quest lines (Well, essential in that you need the AP/LP from them to improve and continue with the game, and missing them severely hinders your progress - Except the temple quest which *was* essential).
I was playing on Easy and I was being blocked by these enemies that took a lot of effort to kill, and it really sapped away at my confidence and enjoyment of the game. If it was "normal" or "hard", fine, I can understand that, but Easy wasn't Easy at all.
The problem, IMHO, wasn't necessarily TDE, but it was that Drakensang (and its manual) didn't really help you grasp the rule set. There were numbers, abbreviations and various forms of terminology, and it just wasn't made any easier by the translation.
Ovenall
SasqWatch
The amoebas weren't hard to defeat in my opinion, but after killing five or eight of them, it became a tedious chore that took way too long. Again, it's my opinion that RPGs are stuffed with this kind of filler as a marketing ploy. It's a way to advertise "XX hours of playtime!" on the box and in press releases.
I've said it before but it applies here as well: Most of the greatest pieces of written literature in the history of humanity take less time to read than it does to play some of these bloated CRPGs. 60-100 hours? To tell a little fantasy story about goblins and wizards and magic swords? Bah!
Most CRPGs would be vastly improved by trimming huge chunks from them.
I've said it before but it applies here as well: Most of the greatest pieces of written literature in the history of humanity take less time to read than it does to play some of these bloated CRPGs. 60-100 hours? To tell a little fantasy story about goblins and wizards and magic swords? Bah!
Most CRPGs would be vastly improved by trimming huge chunks from them.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Drakensang suffered from woefully poor manual and in-game help. Luckily the official forum had a decent FAQ post on TDE mechanics.
Hm, I think we have really different playing styles here, then.
I mean, I don't know such expectations. I don't know whether German gamers hold them. In fact, since I'm NOT a member in ANY German-language gaming community, I really can't say.
This kind of expectation about what a character might be able to o on high levels is to me rather the execption than the norm. I was very much surprised as I found it in DAO.
And since Drakensang is a primarily German-oriented game, it might perhaps even reflect that there less of these "character development expectations" among German gamers.
But on the other hand : I really don't know. I'm so much alien I don't know wether I can trust my senses at all. Maybe I'M so much alien that I've totally lost contact to any "normal" German gamer, and thus I CANNOT know wht they expect.
But in Gothic I haven't seen these "high-tier characzer abilities", either. Not that I can remember them, but on the other hand I did't play all Gothic games through. Gothic 2 & 3 not at all.
Then your levels of self-control just aren't high enough. You mist level them up as much as possible.
Plus, the rats are going for the mage first, at least that's how I heard of and experienced it myself.
To me, this isn't bad. It makes the player learn that even "small" foes - hich are traditionally used for newbie characters - CAN be a hindrance.
This looks rather like differences in playing style to me, maybe even different gaming cultures.
But on the other hand I really can't tell …
This is exactly what problems I had with Baldur's Gate. he mabual was short, din't explain anything clearly enough for me, and I didn't understand what was going on. Plus, it didn't have any in-game help at all … I read that thehandbook was even shotened for the German edition of Baldur's Gate …
You can get a lot of in-game help by right-clicking on almost everything - especially on items, and spells, and on special abilities, too, I think.
I used it a lot - since I'm still not that familiar with the 4th edition [of TDE]. But having a light problem with numbers (a slight dyscalculia, I think), I had (and still have) rather problems with calculating everything out.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Baldur's Gate? You can't be serious. It had one of the biggest and best manuals ever (in English certainly nearly 100 pages). How many pages are in the DS German version?
And to compare a 10 year old game for in-game help is ludicrous. Compared to NWN 2 Drakensang's in-game help was pretty bad. The right-click information in the English translation wasn't explained anywhere. And it's use had errors in in the in game help to add to the confusion.
No, drakensag was much worst that Baldur's Gate...
And to compare a 10 year old game for in-game help is ludicrous. Compared to NWN 2 Drakensang's in-game help was pretty bad. The right-click information in the English translation wasn't explained anywhere. And it's use had errors in in the in game help to add to the confusion.
No, drakensag was much worst that Baldur's Gate...
Dwagginz
Tea Addict
It's quite hard to "level them up as much as possible" when it's right in the first few hours of the game. The first rats can be done with you, Rhulana and the rogue bloke. The second (Sewers) can be you, Rhulana and Forgrimm (And Gladys, IIRC), and under the temple can be a full party.
A player shouldn't be struggling in the very first fights of a game, or at least not that much. The wolves and dragonfly-things (And bears) can be quite dangerous in the "tutorial" area (i.e. the drop you in the middle of nowhere area), and I'll admit I died there a number of times over the hours I've played it.
That's IF you play cRPGs for their story, which is not necessary. I love cRPGs not because of their story, which right now I can't recall any story on any of the probably close to 100 cRPGs I've played. I do like the strategy aspect, the character creation and advancement, the battles, the tactics, the spells, skills, stats, inventory, etc.
But I do agree I prefer playing a tactical battle that takes 30 minutes to resolve (and you win if you play well) instead of 30 1-minute trivial battles that you can win in auto-attack.
Dwagginz
Tea Addict
That's why, IMHO, "Easy" or "Casual" mode exists, for those of us who don't want to spend hours learning to min-max or to fully understand the game mechanics. I blundered my way through NWN2 (Did well-ish with DA:O, but I wouldn't pretend to know how to make an optimal character) and half-enjoyed it. I wouldn't have enjoyed KotOR if the combat was as challenging as Drakensang's.
It's kinda my point about Drakensang's combat. Those of us who are more concerned about the story are forced to get to grips with a complex(ish) ruleset in which mistakes can be rather fatal in the game. Yeah, some of it's common sense, but it's quite indepth. It doesn't help that even on Easy the most basic fight can become complex and convoluted. Click-to-kill is a bit simplistic, but I honestly think one of the few things DA:O did right was the combat difficulty on Easy for those of us who aren't stat whizkids. I got through the game with few issues, but some fights were challenging enough to keep you on your toes.
I found a seemingly official version of it : Quelle: http://www.atarisupport.de/BG_manual_ger.pdf
I can't find my own original yet, because I don't remember in which box it is (I collect ALL of my handbooks in 2 boxes, on of the is full by now).
I found at "Replacementdocs" an English version, which contains for example descriptions of each spell.
