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February 20th, 2020, 01:17
Originally Posted by Philistine View Post
daveyd wasn't saying he didn't understand the statement, it was the reasoning that lead to the statement that he didn't follow. The point is that just because you don't agree, that's no reason to not get along. That's the foundation of civilization, and unfortunately something that seems to be disappearing currently. People should be encouraged to debate publicly without taking things personally.
The salient point is that daved declared "will never understand", to which the never part is the crucial part, because it's akin to saying "I'm happy to watch you blab but I shall be ignoring everything you say and be making zero attempt to understand".

It's oxymoronic to imply you are listening and attempting to understand and then finish by revealing that you have no intention of even trying to understand.
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February 20th, 2020, 01:22
No it's not. He was clumsy with his expression, but he mean't that he didn't agree but nevertheless respected the opinion. I see no negativity at all in it.
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February 20th, 2020, 01:29
How can you respect an opinion you don't understand?

[that's what eye was asking you]
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February 20th, 2020, 01:34
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
The whole issue of turn-based terrorism has been bubbling up for quite a while now, it's what culminated in forcing Pillars of Eternity 2 to have a turn-based option. The devs were tweeting about it but as someone who's allergic to twitter I have no record of it beyond my memory.

And the problem with tackling these terrorists is that they have a salient point, that the AAA scene has completely ignored turn-based content for so long that one, initially, can't help but sympathise with the cause.

Unfortunately, the AAA industry is quite capable of ignoring them, so they find victories in the AA sphere and treat it like it's some major crusade being fulfilled when the reality is all their doing is fucking over the also neglected RTwP scene. Sort of like a small kid kicking another small kid because the big kid laughed at them.

There's also the sub-agenda of anti-Biowarians joining this crusade because they associate RTwP almost entirely with Bioware and are deluded enough to think that by destroying RTwP they will also destroy the Biowarian type RPG.

The Biowarian type RPG has absolutely zero heritage in turn-based systems. It's kind-of akin to raising a campaign to make Dark Souls turn-based. It's like, erm… ok?

But yeah, the real culprit is still the 'homogenisation at the top of the tree in the gaming industry', it's just the rank and file plebs on the front-line of the propaganda war don't really have much knowledge of the subject and find they just enjoy repeating catchphrases and the thrill of the chase and what-have-you.

It's a curious war, and one that has and will have some weird and interesting outcomes, but as per usual with most wars, the main casualties will be the innocents.

daved is merely repeating what others have indoctrinated him to repeat by osmosis: "I will never understand RTwP…" - well, in that case, how on earth did you ever gain any interest in the line of RPGs that used RTwP in order to form an opinion on what the next game in that line should use as it's primary system? If you hate RTwP so much, how did you get invested enough in PK to motivate you to terrorise the fans and developers into offering a turn-based option?
Jesus. Terrorists? Bullies? Maybe Purpleblob was onto something.
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February 20th, 2020, 01:38
Going back to the Dutch thing from a different angle… I do not speak Dutch but I respect the language as I respect all languages for their cultural history and unique expression.
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February 20th, 2020, 01:40
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Butt then you understand them, don’t you?

To clarify:
If I expressed an opinion in Dutch (assuming you not understanding any Dutch of course), how can you say you value that opinion of mine?
Ik zou dan Google translate moeten gebruiken maar Ik begrijp wel Nederlands dus geen probleem voor mij

I actually understand what you mean but it's hard for me to know if I've done anything wrong since I don't think anyone has told me so on the Watch.

So for me if I don't get feedback I won't know and that's also potentially part of the problem.
The issue purpleblob describes is a very real issue but not an easy one to solve as it is not something you can just put as part of the TOS.



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February 20th, 2020, 04:12
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Hmm… but you wrote
“I like to read her opinions here even though she likes RTwP combat for reasons I shall never understand”
There is some friction there, I mean how can anyone value something if you do not understand it? And admit will never understand it?
I do understand you may have been thinking of her opinion about other subjects or other preferences, but well this particular remark is a bit scratchy, if you get my drift.
Perhaps I did not phrase that in the optimal way but i was certainly not implying "you're stupid if you like RtwP". All I meant is that I personally do not get the appeal. In other words, we clearly have different tastes when it comes to combat systems.

Lots of people enjoy watching professional sports. I don't really "understand" the appeal. That's not going to change. But acknowledging that something is unappealing to me doesn't imply I think other people must be dumb for liking it.

I honestly don't see what's confrontational or aggressive (assuming that's what you mean by "scratchy") about essentially saying "obviously, we have different tastes and we'll have to agree to disagree on some things." I can still appreciate hearing different perspectives at times even if I go into it knowing my opinion is not likely to change.

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post

daved is merely repeating what others have indoctrinated him to repeat by osmosis: "I will never understand RTwP…" - well, in that case, how on earth did you ever gain any interest in the line of RPGs that used RTwP in order to form an opinion on what the next game in that line should use as it's primary system? If you hate RTwP so much, how did you get invested enough in PK to motivate you to terrorise the fans and developers into offering a turn-based option?
Haha, I don't think anyone has indoctrinated me. If so, perhaps the makers of the original Fallout. I've been a fan of turn-based games for a long time and yeah I'm passionate about what I like but I'm pretty sure that's true of many people who love action RPGs or any other type of game.

As for why I care that a particular game has RTwP… because I really like the "old school" cRPG sub-genre and am generally a fan of dungeons and dragons. In the 90's we had a plethora of turn-based D&D games like the Gold Box series, but ever since Infinity engine we've barely had any. And I really enjoy the non-combat aspects of these types of games. For ex: I love the story / setting & atmosphere of Planescape: Torment but there's still a significant amount of combat in the game, and it really brings down my enjoyment of what otherwise might have been my favorite RPG. And in most RPGs the majority of your is spent in combat, so why would I want to spend my free time on something I'll not enjoy 85%+ of the time?

I expressed disappointment when I found out PF: K was going to RTwP because otherwise I'd be very interested in a new TB cRPG based on the 3.5e ruleset. But I got over it when I heard about Realms Beyond which is essentially the kind of RPG I've been waiting for, for many years. I've heard good things about the turn-based mod for Kingmaker but I haven't got the game yet.

But saying turn-based fans have terrorized the fans and developers seems a bit melodramatic, don't you think? Unless there's actually been some death threats or something else crazy I'm not aware of. (I obviously wouldn't condone that). As far as I can tell they still aren't making the next Pathfinder turn-based so it's not something I'll be buying anytime soon. That's fine, I've got RB, Solasta, and a bunch of other turn-based games to look forward to in the next year or so (hopefully).
Last edited by daveyd; February 20th, 2020 at 04:34.
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February 20th, 2020, 04:31
Originally Posted by Philistine View Post
No it's not. He was clumsy with his expression, but he mean't that he didn't agree but nevertheless respected the opinion. I see no negativity at all in it.
You personally seeing no negative intent doesn’t mean that there was no negative intent.
You personally seeing no negative intent doesn’t mean that others wouldn’t see negative intent.

Words are all we have here - they matter. ‘clumsy expressions’ happen, for sure … but repeated across threads, they stop being ‘clumsy’ and become ‘the actual story’.
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February 20th, 2020, 06:14
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
You personally seeing no negative intent doesn’t mean that there was no negative intent.
You personally seeing no negative intent doesn’t mean that others wouldn’t see negative intent.

Words are all we have here - they matter. ‘clumsy expressions’ happen, for sure … but repeated across threads, they stop being ‘clumsy’ and become ‘the actual story’.
All you are saying is that interpretation is subjective. Just because you see it negatively does not make it "the actual story". Reality is not subjective.
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February 20th, 2020, 10:49
Woow, so many opinions.
OK, let's dance, here's my 2 cents:

How about forgetting this male/female/whatever stuff on the internet?
Everybody is just an alias, that can be anything in real life. Eg:
  • SweetJesus33, the enigmatic dude could be a manic serial killer who is actually a tree hugger yoga instructor in New York.
  • Princess<3, the super sensitive female could be just an insecure male, or simply a zero IQ troll.
  • Hammerfist21, a hyper macho foul mouthed male could be a 9 year old kid, high on GI Joe adventures.
My point is: our alleged gender/personality is meaningless on the internet.
Taking it for real only generates confusion and eventually anger.
So how about simply ignoring it?
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February 20th, 2020, 18:41
Quoting myself here :

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I have these days more and more the feeling as if discussions are more and more perceived as a way of competition.
A behaviour being carried over from gaming, maybe ß Because nearly all games these days are about competoition. Be it against NPCs or in MMOs. Fighting is competition - competition like "who survives last ?"

And … there's a current, very serious change out there in male - especially younger male - behaviour.

we see here in Germany that younger men - and older ones as well - become more and more selfish. Policepersons, amulancemen and helpers of any kind are attaced while they are carrying out their duty, like helping a helpless person, or helping an really insured person.
Men have become so selfish in their behaviour that they attack helpless people. One has been beaten down. lies on the floor ? Additional beatings with shoes or boots have become the norm rather than the exception. Men have begun throwing people in front of trains arriving in railway stations. We didn't have that decades ago. Illegal racings - sometimes performed by young men with NO driving license ! are killing people. (We now have had a recent chance in law that allows judge courts to sentence them for murder.)

Where does this selfish, egoistic behaviour mainly in young men come from ? Someone or something must have taught them that this violence is a good way to get rid of people, that the rush of illegal racings through towns are a good thing, no matter whether people are killed or not. And these drivers are so much egoistic that they often don't even have the thought that something *might* get out of control in such an illegal racing !

Something or someone must have taught them that egoistic behaviour is … goo. They don't care about the injured ones, they attack the ambulancemen instead.

I read that this egoistic behaviour often has something to do with power, accouring to experts / scoientists of the sociel field. People believe that policepersons and ambulandemen and firemen have power, and that's why they attack them. I have even read that these attackers think like "they help him/her - why do they not help ME ?" That's utterly selfish and egfoistic behaviour.

Someone or something must taucht them that being egoistic, tht being selfish is good.

And that carries over into forum discussions everywhere.

Someone has a different opinion than me ? Time to give him/her a good verbal beating!
Someone is wrong in the internet ß Time to give him a good verbal beating !
Someone is right in the internet ß Time to give her/him a good verbal beating !

An experiment : Feel into your self what kinds of emotions (and thoughts) the word "humility" evokes inside of you.

Because that word and its meaning is currently totally burned. If I talk about being humble, people will laugh at me or declare me as a lunatic in other forums I'm not in.
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February 20th, 2020, 19:06
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
Quoting myself here :…..
I think you’re taking the actions of the few and projecting that on society as a whole. I assume the majority or even a significant number of people are not pushing people in front of trains or racing illegally in Germany.

Also murder and despicable human behavior is nothing new. The difference is that we have much more technology and we hear about everything. When I was growing up in the 80’s if it didn’t happen in my small town of 27 people it might as well not have happened as I’d never hear about it. Now someone gets pushed in front of a train in Germany and i hear about it.
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February 20th, 2020, 21:14
I've tried. Desperately and numerous times to get him back. By writing about adventures, Lucky Luke, Drakensang, german comedies, everything I could think of!
But I'm not mmo.

Alrik, you didn't leave us because of being scared of something. You found something more interesting than chattying with us here. And that's okay, if it makes you happy, I say go for it and don't let go.
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February 20th, 2020, 23:33
Even though my posting habbits can be described somewhat obscure since I rarely take part in those so called infamous debates, I value this place a lot and I keep coming back. My experience is that watch is one of the more civilized forums I have visited. I've seen plenty of toxic places online and this for sure isn't one of them. Social media for instance I find much more hostile than these good old fashioned discussion forums where people atleast are expected to give some reasons for their arguments.

I also want to say that my experience is that people on average aren't built to be hyper sensitive to everyone's feelings 24/7. Also I think it is worth of pointing out that in watch we have people around the world gathered to discuss about videogames and other things. One cannot expect that everyone belives in same cultural or moral values. Best we can hope is try following those basic guidelines HiddenX posted on page 1. That would go a long way making any place better for all. And I think the moderation (Eye) here has been doing good job enforcing the house rules as well.

Also the nature of internet forums is that people come and go. Sometimes people just get tired of their dear hobby and need to do something else for a while to kindle that old spark again. Not to mention real life issues which naturally takes precedence over some forums which I belive has been a reason for some long time members' departure.
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February 21st, 2020, 01:55
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February 21st, 2020, 03:06
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
A little? Compared to the Codex this place is full of only Hipsters, Hippies and Hugs. Compared to the Codex most forums are though.
Agreed. I was using understatement.
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February 22nd, 2020, 11:51
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
A little? Compared to the Codex this place is full of only Hipsters, Hippies and Hugs. Compared to the Codex most forums are though.
See ? Competition again. Thank you for proving my point. The Codex vs. The Watch.

And seeing that

Hipsters, Hippies and Hugs
have such a bad meaning these days, the Codex is seen as "more mature", "more real", "more powerful" and as such more better in general, as it doesbn't seem to consists of "weaklings" as "Hipsters, Hippies and Hugs" are labelled as.

I'm actually glad that I'm not in the Codex, because there appears to be nothing but that verbally violent discussion competition.

In this competition-focused mindset it is seen that someone is rising in respect of other competors if he (or she) is able to crush another opponent's opinion.

Compromises ? Are for weaklings. No manly man is making any compromises ! Not even within discussions !
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February 22nd, 2020, 13:45
Obviously I agree with the sentiment alrik, but is your post not a competative post? In that you are competing for moral authority? And that it's an extremist post in that it doesn't suggest room for people to vary their posts. Maybe sometimes a competative post is ok, you know, considering its a gaming forum and all…
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February 22nd, 2020, 16:24
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I'm actually glad that I'm not in the Codex, because there appears to be nothing but that verbally violent discussion competition.
The Codex is for big nerds who think they're frat boys.
Good place for people who hate themselves.
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February 22nd, 2020, 16:30
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Obviously I agree with the sentiment alrik, but is your post not a competative post? In that you are competing for moral authority? And that it's an extremist post in that it doesn't suggest room for people to vary their posts. Maybe sometimes a competative post is ok, you know, considering its a gaming forum and all…
There is a distinct difference between ‘competition’ and ‘zero sum game’ (and ‘scorched earth policy’, for that matter).
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