Buying Steam-keys?

For those interested I use this thread to add some updates when I stumble upon them.
Creditcard fraud my arse. The whole thing is a moneylaundry paradise just like bioware points. You buy gamekeys or virtual currency noone controls with dirty money then resell them to get the clean cash. But thanks to the different pricing idiocy, not only you get the clean cash, you earn some more in the process as you sold 10 bucks brazillian copy for $20 (just an example).

The only way to stop this all from happening is to put the same price on a software product internationally. Yes, there is still the different taxes problem, but I'm pretty sure it can be sorted out.
In the meantime, I don't care if someone buys a $50 steam game for $2 on keyseller sites or on auctions. Is it a legit key? It is. If there is a problem, the one to blame is definetly not the buyer.
 
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And here is a recent update from Bethesda, who also just banned Reseller Keys in Elder Scrolls online. The Cool thing is, that they actually provide a list of legitimate resellers:

Source:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.co...tion-of-fraudulently-obtained-esotu-game-keys
We’ve recently seen an increase in the sale of fraudulently obtained digital game keys for The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited.

We want to remind gamers to shop wisely and only purchase online keys from a reputable source. Fraudulently obtained keys obtained via Steam and then re-sold via third-party websites is a violation of both our and Steam’s Terms of Service. We will be deactivating all game accounts created with such stolen keys starting on Tuesday, May 26th. Affected users will receive an email with instructions on how to regain access to their game account via a valid game purchase.

The companies selling stolen keys make a practice of using stolen credit cards, or misappropriating credit card information from their own customers to buy codes from legitimate retailers. Often these companies have the lowest price available anywhere for the digital item they are selling. Customers who purchase from these vendors are at increased risk for identity theft.

Extreme discounting below the published prices on our website may be a clue that the digital key purchased for the game may have been fraudulently obtained.

We want to ensure that you have the best game experience possible. To avoid unknowingly purchasing a stolen game key we suggest that you purchase from our site or one of the official retailers listed below.

Global
• 2game
• Allbrary
• AtGames (Direct2Drive)
• DLGamer
• Gamebillet
• GameFan Shop
• Gamesplanet
• Gamesrepublic
• Gamesrocket
• Get Games Direct
• Green Man Gaming
• Humble Store
• Metaboli
• Microsoft
• Nuuvem
• Paddle
• SaveMi
• Sila Games
• Smilegate
• Sony
• Steam
• The Licensing Agency
• Tradebyte
• Tranquiltechnology
• Ubisoft Uplay
• WinGameStore
• Xanatan
• Also Digital BV
• Exertis Ztorm
• Game Retail Stores ( Game Digital Limited )
• Gamersgate
• Nexway
• Soft Distribution Gmbh


North America
• Amazon
• Best Buy
• Busca Corp
• Buy Egames
• GameStop
• Imperial Games


Africa
• BT Games


Europe
• 1 Tonne de jeux
• 1c Digital / Muve/softclub.ru
• ALSO Shops
• Alternate
• Alza
• Au fond à gauche
• Boonty
• Boulanger
• CDiscount FR
• CDON
• Cenega Digital – Muve
• Central Point NL
• Codora
• Computersalg
• Darty
• Digital Virgo
• Dream Game
• Elkjøp AS (Dixons)
• Entertainment Trading
• epay
• Fnac
• Foniks
• Game Sultan
• GAME.co
• Gamedigi
• Games Republic
• Games Rocket
• Gamesload
• Gry-online
• IGE Group
• Intexmedia ES
• Jeuxvideo.com
• Jimms
• JRC
• Keto Media GmbH DE
• Kioskea
• Komplett
• konsoleigry
• Micromania
• More Than Games
• Multiplayer IT
• Muve
• Notebooksbilliger
• Orange
• PC Garage
• Playcycle
• PlayGames
• PS
• Rue du commerce
• SFR
• ShopTo
• Smadis
• Softonic
• Softwareload
• Spaceworld
• Starzik
• Tech Data
• Tones
• Toomai
• TTNet
• UnlimitedGameStore
• ZokkusMacGames_FR


Hong Kong
• 520 Game Limited
• Alta Multimedia Limited
• BE Advance Computer Systems Co.
• Black Hand Fu
• CC Game Company Limited
• Chinesegamer International Corporation
• Gallop Computer Technology Limited
• GameNeed (HK) Limited
• MSI (Micro-Star International)
• Msystem.com.hk Limited
• Sino Legend International Company
• Six PC Company
• Success Comic Book & Network Game Gallery
• Tung's Computer Technology Co.
• West City Computer Multimedia Ltd.

Oceania
• Savemi
• Didgio Pty Ltd


Russia
• 1c Publishing / 1c – Soft-Club


South America
• B2C Express
• GatoSabido
• Incomp
• Nuuvem
• Paodeazucar
• Playspot
• Saraiva
• Starmedia


Southeast Asia/Japan
• Friendster.com
• GamePia
• H2 Interactive
• StraStar
• Tact Interactive Pte Ltd
• Beijing CE-Asia Co Ltd
• One Station Technology Co ( Gamesource )
• Transcrane Enterprise Co Ltd ( T/A Kanezo )
• SquareEnix e-store
 
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:confused:
Someone still p(l)ays that game?
 
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Yeah. Also within the last months they also switched from Subscription to a Buy-to-Play model and launched the Console release.

Personally I am not playing it though.
 
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Digging this thread up as the topic recently got hot again due to the conflict between Tinybuild and G2A (G2A essentially selling keys coming from stolen credit cards).

Meanwhile lots of articles and videos are popping up around the topic.

Here is a few of them:




And if you speak German, Insertmoin just did a very nice podcast about it over here:
http://insertmoin.de/im1615-le-brunch-streitfrage-keyseller-direkter-schaden-fuer-entwickler/

My lengthy posting regarding this topic can be found on the first page of this very thread over here: https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1061317565#post1061317565
 
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It's this:
http://www.pcgamer.com/tinybuild-claims-g2a-sold-450000-worth-of-its-keys-without-paying-a-penny/
http://www.pcgamer.com/g2a-responds-to-fraudulent-key-complaint/
That Alex guy from Tinybuild is just as shady as G2A.

Chance that $450.000 of worth keys were paid by stolen creditcards is impossible. Tracking of sold keys in year 2016. if not possible, then one should remove their arse from games industry.

What Alex doesn't want to admit is that he was trying to make people fools. He was (most probably) selling keys on Filipines for $5 and elsewhere for $25, of course those $5 keys will now be resold for bigger price on key reseller sites - but Alex got the money asked, there is no way reselling should get someone royalties.
Next time put prices the same everywhere.

And why is he raging on G2A only? There are dozens of key reseller sites. What, everyone is into stealing credit cards?

Stolen keys have to be tracked and set defunct. It's not ebay's problem if goods are stolen or not. Nor ebay needs to care about royalties.

More about stolen keys, but really stolen keys that were rendered defunct by Ubisoft:
https://www.destructoid.com/ubisoft...ld-through-third-parties-update--286686.phtml
 
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Well, he is raging about G2A because they are the platform which sold his account. Of course he could mention others as well. But it also seems like he isn't against keyselling these pages themselves, but mainly against how G2A is handling things.

Also the 450k is something he clearly mentioned as retail price. He also mentioned that G2A made 200k out of it if they sold it at their price.

I agree that "stolen" keys need to be set defunct and it's also weird that he can't clearly say which keys are affected. But it might be more difficulty for a tiny company as one might think.
And it's a shame that Ubisoft didn't go through with it when it happened the last time and allowed stolen keys sold by resellers to stay active to not make people angry...
If everyone would just deactivate keys which are paid with chargebacks, and that way again and again keys sold by third party resellers became invalid it would also give keysellers a very different image, as it currenlty goes like "Are they legit?" "Yes, because I never had problems with them".

Regarding your theory about selling Keys to Filipines: That sounds like a very far off speculation.

Giving everyone the same prices is a rather big-headed demand. Just because some people want to save a few bucks, you basically deny the ability from people of lower income prices to also buy the game.

The Ubisoft story was also covered in the videos and the podcast.
 
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You do realize that it's possible to buy Bioware Points for cheap over VPN? Basically cheating Origin to think your country is some other.
I didn't know it when I was buying BP but someone posted it on Bioware site (you'll see me in that thread too):
http://forum.bioware.com/topic/538464-how-to-buy-bioware-points-for-cheap-sale-or-no-sale/
This idiocy is just another reason I'm angry with EA.

Same prices for everyone. That's the only way to set things right.
If not, who stops you from buying Bioware Points or some game over VPN then reselling it on ebay?

Lower income is not an excuse. It's not that prices are lower for people with lower income. That's the REAL price. The prices got pumped up for countries with bigger income. Crying over decision not to put the same price everywhere is rediculous. Reselling will always exist. By different prices people like Alex just made it easy earner.

About a question is key reseller site legit - it is. It does what ebay does. Resells what's already bought. If you bought Britney Spears' vomit over ebay, do you really think ebay should guarantee it's genuine "product"?
By buying key on reseller site you're risking to get a stolen key. And again, if game developer or publisher did not disable stolen keys, well, should we now cry?
 
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Before you get the same prices everyone it's more realistic that it leads to more f2p as the purchases there have to be done from the publisher himself, more season passes where only the base game can be sold via third parties and more language locks. For example if you buy a russian key, that you can only play the game in russian anymore.

Also I don't think that the lowest price can be considered the "real" price. ^^
Pretty sure that lots of publishers and developers would not be able to continue doing games with such a big cut on their income. Low prices are just low because the alternative would be to not sell any games at all there / leave everything to piracy.
 
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a) Also the 450k is something he clearly mentioned as retail price. He also mentioned that G2A made 200k out of it if they sold it at their price.

b) I agree that "stolen" keys need to be set defunct and it's also weird that he can't clearly say which keys are affected. But it might be more difficulty for a tiny company as one might think.

a) Somebody on Qt3 made an effort to track down the cheapest prices the dev has sold his games for voluntarily. He came to the conclusion that the "real" damage is ca. 1/20th of his claim.

b) Of course he can track precisely which keys have been bought with stolen credit cards. He could nuke these keys, but he doesn't want to.

What does he hope to achieve? If he claims certain keys sold by or on G2A are stolen, it's up to him to provide proof for this. G2A asked him for a list. The ball is in his field.
 
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a) That calculation is as wrong as taking the full price. Same way you could also say "they could all have just pirated the game instead".
Of course nobody can really tell how big the realistic loss is. But factually people were ok with paying the G2A price. And even if G2A purchased the keys normally for 1/20 of that price (and not with fraud) his net loss would have been 19/20.

b) That's not necessarily true. I mean it's true in theory. Bit dependent on the software and the partners involved this can take hundreds if not thousands of man hours to check every single transaction and with which key it's connected.
So it might actually be a huge investment for a small company to receive such a list, which then doesn't even guarantee that it leads to anything.
 
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a) That calculation is as wrong as taking the full price. Same way you could also say "they could all have just pirated the game instead".
Of course nobody can really tell how big the realistic loss is. But factually people were ok with paying the G2A price. And even if G2A purchased the keys normally for 1/20 of that price (and not with fraud) his net loss would have been 19/20.

b) That's not necessarily true. I mean it's true in theory. Bit dependent on the software and the partners involved this can take hundreds if not thousands of man hours to check every single transaction and with which key it's connected.
So it might actually be a huge investment for a small company to receive such a list, which then doesn't even guarantee that it leads to anything.

a) I can't follow you. He put one of his games into the 1$ tier of a bundle, together with two other games. By doing this he sets the price implicitly to 33 cents, if we ignore transaction costs. If he really believed that game could still be sold for a RRP of, say, 9.99$, he simply wouldn't have put it into this bundle. The only two logical explanations are (1) he had already written the game off and didn't expect significant future revenue from it, or (2) he made a serious business mistake. Every profit G2A made by exploiting price arbitrage like this is both legal and legitimate.
To get back to topic, why should a price he set be considered "wrong" when determining the potential damage?

b) Of course it's work, but we're talking about his own online shop. He already has a list of failed transactions. Most shop systems send defined standard mails automatically. It's not unlikely he can filter all generated stolen keys out of DB, with some clever DB magic.

Again, G2A is innocent until proven guilty - shady business model or not.

It looks to me as though he has problems on the business side. Theft is a problem every retail business has. Maybe he didn't expect it when he decided to open his own shop.
 
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a) it's not about having his game in a bundle.
Let's say that I offer you that I sell you a game for 20$ (original price), for 10$ (reduced price) or 1$ (humble bundle price).
And you decide that you buy the game for 10$.
Then I would get 10$ of income from you. Now if you don't buy it from me, but from a third party which gave 1$ to me for it, then I still have a missed income of 9$ which this particular customer was willing to pay.
That's why I'd say that taking the price G2A sold the game for is a better margin to calculate losses than the bare minimum price he ever sold the game for.

b) Even if it's his own online shop (which it wasn't. It's was from a distribution partner), that really doesn't mean he does everything by himself. He is not a bank. Even big comapnies with "own" shops still use a third parties to handle the payments, especially for countries like germany which have DD system which come with a huge additional mess. Of course I can't tell what he was using and how much effort it would be for him. But while I agree that it "should" be easy to filter out the accounts, I can also see how that's not necessarily the case if the system was not build around uncovering fraud. It might just give out a key coming from a certain batch without documenting which key it was, or storing it in a way that it becomes easily accessable. While we in Germany are confronted with chargebacks all day, that's not insanely common in the US for example.
Also the keys were not directly bought from his store but over another party. So let's say you provive a batch of 100 keys to Partner B and this partner then sells the key to customers. But not all of them. They also sell 50 of the keys to company C, which is a keyseller. And they now sell the keys for less, either because they were alble to cut some conditions A had with B or because the keys were not already paid via B in the first place or anything similar. Anyhow. You only know which keys you gave to B in this case. You could of course ban all of them but would also affect some legit customers. But if C bought keys with chargebacks from B for example, it's already becoming a pain in the ass for the developer.

At some point it becomes mostly impossible to track. Of course it should be possible to determine from which batch a certain key is coming. But all the publisher can say is where it went to in the first place and not where it went after that.
 
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While I still disagree on tracking keys being an issue, bundled or not, assuming what Alex was saying is all true, two questions remain unanswered.

1. G2A is not the only key reseller site, such sites are growing like mushrooms. It's possibly the most known one (advertisments, sponsorships). If just G2A gets "dealt with" some way, will stealing keys then reselling them stop? Should we continue taking sides instead of finding some actual solution to the problem?

2. Is it possible that this Alex person is basically using keystealing problem and pointing finger onto G2A just to advertise his IMO shitty game? I'm saying IMO, I haven't bought it nor there is a chance I ever will. It's yet another bloody phonegame. Or as TB said it's "clicker with some minor decisions involved":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlJUFCM78zw
Oh and on PC this game was twice the price of iOS version.


Just so someone doesn't think I'm advocating G2A here. That site is also selling LoL accounts which is forbidden by game ToS. Making LoL account is FREE and selling it is nothing but a scam. G2A knows this and still allows it! No other keyreselling site to my knowledge does it. Only G2A.
So far they don't sell Star Trek gambling boxes, but wouldn't surprise me to hear soon that scam is available there.
 
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Well, MMOGA (which is mainly active in Germany) sells WoW Accounts and Ingame Gold, so there is that. ^^

1. It might actually go hand in hand. The more people talk about and and the more videos and articles pop up about it the more comfortable someone like Ubisoft might feel to just ban all the keys. Would be interesting to see what happened if the same situation Ubi had in the past happened today.

2. Getting some free advertisement out of it certainly plays a role when he wrote his blog. And from what I heared you are right about the game. Well, it's subjective whether or not it's shitty, but it appears to be mostly phone game like from what I know (haven't played it either, but a friend who has). But I don't see anything wrong with it as long as he stays to the truth which of course is hard to check.
 
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But WoW doesn't have a competitive scene and is not listed anywhere as e-sports title. And is certainly not free or if it now is, wasn't. ;)

1. I stay with my first post on the matter. All stolen keys must be banned. Nuked. Defunct. Being it Ubi, TinyBuild or someone else. By not disabling them stealing just gets encouraged. How to make it easily done, dunno, I'm not into games selling business.
But it can't be responsibility of a store or a site to control the source. The publisher has to do it.

2. I've speculated on advertising because of the initial price difference of phone and PC version. It was iPhone $5, PC $10. It's still different, on iTunes the game is now 2 bucks (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/punch-club/id1024951378?mt=8), on Steam is still $10 (although now on sale so it's $2.5). Did I mention by saying the cure would be the same price everywhere I ment also port prices have to be the same? ;)
 
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How many people have heard of Tinybuild before this? Yes exactly what I thought... This is just a publicity stunt.
 
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How many people have heard of Tinybuild before this? Yes exactly what I thought… This is just a publicity stunt.

I did! :D
Well, to be honest, not about the company name itself. But I already knew both of their games (well, shame on me if they have more than the 2 ^^)
 
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I think the bigger point is that companies like Tinybuild will need to move on with the times like the music and movie industry. We live in a global world and you can't price discriminate based on where someone live anymore. Sites like G2A are a reaction to this price discrimination.

Most of these "grey key" comes from countries where the keys are cheap and not from credit card fraud unlike what Tinybuild claim. Credit card frauds exists but thats not the source of majority of these keys. Tinybuild knows this and this is why they won't say which keys were obtained via fraud.
 
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