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November 16th, 2021, 22:35
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
Really? I'm quite sure that you (or we) are a majority.
I assume most of Solasta fans would value combat more hence likely I'm in minority answering that survey who value story more than combat.

In saying that, I also value combat. I can't quite understand people who vote 5 for combat and 0 for story - that sounds like TB strategy, not RPG imo.

For the question where they ask if I value gameplay vs story, I voted 2 which means I slightly value story more than gameplay. Its all about balance imo. I don't enjoy combat heavy + light story games but I rarely can finish the opposite as well.
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November 17th, 2021, 10:41
A good RPG is about having everything in moderation. There should be no one element that greatly elevates itself above the other elements of the game to the detriment of other elements.

And this doesn't mean it should be monotone or mediocre or average, it means that all of your Character Sheet stats should have an equal quantity of importance, to which the RPG is what aspects the player themselves wants to enhance for their personal playthrough.

A game which overly focuses on story is being very selfish towards other playstyles just as a pure combat game is being selfish towards those who favour other playstyles. It weakens the RPG aspect if you make arbitrary demands that have nothing to do with RPG but everything to do with how YOU always play your RPGs.

Because no-one has yet made a cRPG where this is achieved with an almost perfect level of equality of choice is not the fault of the concept, but constantly making demands that over-bias one specific aspect really doesn't help the cause.

This post isn't directed at anyone specifically, just my thoughts after reading all your posts. The fact that a developer even needs to ask what to over-bias is a very bad sign in itself IMO.
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November 17th, 2021, 10:43
Skimming through this thread all I can say is that hopefully they won't listen a lot to people answering from these boards.

Which seems to be usually the case, so I'm not worried.
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November 17th, 2021, 16:21
You're right.

They should just listen to a single one. Which of course would be me.
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November 17th, 2021, 16:48
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
Skimming through this thread all I can say is that hopefully they won't listen a lot to people answering from these boards.

Which seems to be usually the case, so I'm not worried.
Nah they opened the vote to anyone so you have to consider the average joe gamer. So by that estimate I expect answers to vary and yeah they wont listen at all. As usual.

Here one thread for evidence.

Link - https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46298
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November 17th, 2021, 16:53
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Nah they opened the vote to anyone so you have to consider the average joe gamer. So by that estimate I expect answers to vary and yeah they wont listen at all. As usual.

Here one thread for evidence.

Link - https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46298
At least we know we're not average people, we can find some solace in that.
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November 17th, 2021, 16:55
I think they should go forward with their combat model, it worked really well and the different levels of enemies was quite fun, for some reason it reminds me a bit of Final fantasy tactics….probably due to some of the ruin levels.

Now, they really need to work on the story and character conversations. Sometimes it feels very simplistic. Would like a lot more lore as in some of the cool sites you visit there isn't a lot. I liked the idea of finding relics to return for faction standings as it added a bit to the game.

Surprised they wouldn't get another license…or is this more they don't want to pay for one?
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November 17th, 2021, 17:15
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I think they should go forward with their combat model, it worked really well and the different levels of enemies was quite fun, for some reason it reminds me a bit of Final fantasy tactics….probably due to some of the ruin levels.

Now, they really need to work on the story and character conversations. Sometimes it feels very simplistic. Would like a lot more lore as in some of the cool sites you visit there isn't a lot. I liked the idea of finding relics to return for faction standings as it added a bit to the game.

Surprised they wouldn't get another license…or is this more they don't want to pay for one?
They didn't need a licence for the SRD because it's not required (EDIT: the SRD is only a subset of the content available through the full D&D licence). They simply discussed with WotC to make sure there was no issue or violation.

I suppose they would like to get the full licence and not be limited to the SRD for the next game. But WotC don't provide this licence to everyone. IIRC Larian were refused the first time they asked.
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November 17th, 2021, 17:33
Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
I liked the idea of finding relics to return for faction standings as it added a bit to the game.
That was nice, but I thought it felt a bit too… mechanical. And overall, it was pretty shallow. I wish those factions could have given side quests and that your relation with the different factions could have played a greater role.
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November 17th, 2021, 19:14
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
You're right.

They should just listen to a single one. Which of course would be me.
In general, a studio asking people how they want their games to be is so sad. For one, people have no clue how they want games to be. Some think they do, but they really don't.

And the most important point, when you ask people how they want your game to be, that's essentially saying "We're not good enough to figure it out, please tell us what makes you happy". Sure, because it's that easy, right? Damn, how has nobody ever figured it out already! I imagine now Leonardo DaVinci making polls through Italy "What do you want my next project to be? Please be detailed, I want to sell it for a lot, and make waves through history with it". Just ask random people who don't have an ounce of your talent, and poll them together so even if there was somebody with actual talent, or an actual vision, you won't be able to tell them apart. With all that feedback, the instant cash shower is guaranteed!

Except it's not.

The only thing it does is show a complete and utter lack of both self-respect and creative vision. If you want me to buy your game, make it your own, bring something that you think is great, and let me be the judge of it. I have no time for talentless code monkeys that will type down some C# the way they're told to and call it a game.

This is why BG3 won't be nearly as good as it could have been (EA "feedback", public exposure and whatnot) and why I'm very much not looking forward to whatever Tactical Adventures brings forth at this point. Sure, make a game based on what Average Joes want. Make a game based on what RPGWatchers want, too! I'll be sure to never look at it as it scores something between 6 and 7.5 by fans and goes down through history as something unremarkable to be quickly forgotten because at best, it will be fanservice crap with no meaning or essence.
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November 17th, 2021, 20:16
IMO it's rather wise to know the market, especially these days when most indie developers are struggling to be recognized. Marketing has been developed for a reason, only fools like Steve Jobs think they can impose their products and make people like them.

It's more general than just for products. When you work in a company, you stand much better chances when you know who you're talking to and what they think.
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November 17th, 2021, 21:04
If you're struggling to be recognized, then you're not talented. It's okay, some people are tall, others are beautiful, and others are intelligent. Code monkeys should write mobile apps as told to, or copy Paizo books into a videogame.

Leave the creative bits for those who have it.
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November 17th, 2021, 21:42
That's an idealization, not the reality. When you are in competition with thousands of others, you simply cannot be recognized easily and instantly, there is no big board with the score of every producer from which the consumers can choose. And talent is very subjective, even if you do something fantastic, it may not match the current demand.

Just look at all the indies on Steam if you want to get an idea. I'm not even bothering to look for new games there, it's just noise.

Typically these days, new devs must first try to get their products reviewed in order to be somewhat visible on the market. Then maybe, if the product pleases the reviewer, they get a chance to be known. I recommend you this video, it's quite the eye-opener.

Besides, even if they're talented and already known, asking people's preferences is not a weakness, it's smart and it's a sign they care for them. It doesn't mean they will stick to the results and implement their product only based on that (Couch's earlier link is a good example), all they say is "we'd like to know your interest". No promises.
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November 17th, 2021, 21:59
In an ideal world artists would create whatever they like most and then would sell enough of it to make a living.

Unfortunately our world isn't ideal and some (if not most) artists just need to create whatever customers want.
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November 17th, 2021, 22:11
I see what you're getting at, but the thing is making games, movies, writing books, or other forms of creative expression aren't a 9-5 office job where you just sit, do your hours, and walk home with the day's paycheck. Where there may be too many construction workers and make some go unemployed because there's simply no more things to build for them, there's never too many writers/painters/designers etc, there can always be more, and become successful so long they are good enough.

The problem is when those who are not cut out for it treat creative jobs as a 9-5 office job to "make a living", and then complain that the scene is overcrowded. Overcrowded for mediocre products, of course.

The one thing I agree is that sometimes budget can conceal your creative limitations by making something flashy or appealing that doesn't need to be that great, so indie developers do have a harder time, they have to outstand only with the power of their minds and no tools to aid them, nearly no access to marketing, and working too many hours for what seems to be a daunting gamble. But that is the way of life in all aspects, not only in creative positions. If you want to succeed without having a boss, you need to do a much harder and better job than everyone else.
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November 18th, 2021, 00:04
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post
They didn't need a licence for the SRD because it's not required (EDIT: the SRD is only a subset of the content available through the full D&D licence). They simply discussed with WotC to make sure there was no issue or violation.

I suppose they would like to get the full licence and not be limited to the SRD for the next game. But WotC don't provide this licence to everyone. IIRC Larian were refused the first time they asked.
I'd love to see what these guys could do with the full licence. My biggest issue with the SRD is that a lot of the more interesting D&D races aren't included.
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November 18th, 2021, 10:26
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
I see what you're getting at, but the thing is making games, movies, writing books, or other forms of creative expression aren't a 9-5 office job where you just sit, do your hours, and walk home with the day's paycheck.
This is exactly how it is. Except for the paycheck part, and that nobody limits work between 9-5 anymore. Though there seems to be a number of indie devs who do that on top of another job, so the hours may vary.

Not that it's relevant here.
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November 18th, 2021, 11:26
I just want more Solasta. As in, use the current engine and the SRD (do they need a license for that, anyway, from WoTC?) - maybe they do since this is 5E, I'm not entirely certain on the licensing requirements to use the 5E core system. I know 3.5 has been "open source' since… well, Pathfinder is a thing because of it.

Anyway, there is a great toolkit and fun combat system here, the campaign was just really short. Give me the second half of the campaign, or some further adventures, or something. There's still a TON of stuff they can do with the basic SRD. Just look at the triple options offered for all the classes currently available.

And, I mean, swamp halflings. Swamp Half-things. Heh. They can make up their own races, I'm fairly bored with the D&D races anyway. It's just every type of furry now with dragon people, demon people and angel people tacked on to the Tolkien standards. At least Dark Sun and Eberron tried to do some different things with the races.

As for "what is more important gameplay or story" that's just a weird disingenuous question. It depends on what I'm playing. If it's a visual novel or one of those "almost a visual novel" games then story is paramount. If I'm playing Tetris, there ain't much in terms of story going on with my matching of shapes but the gameplay is fun and addictive. In a CRPG? It also depends. Ideally, both are nice and I think most CRPGs that are remembered as very good have some combination of both, or stand out in other ways that make them memorable. I'll take one of my all time favorites. Baldur's Gate 2. The gameplay was based on AD&D rules which to me, at the time the game was released, was the HEIGHT of gameplay and I still love games based on tabletop rule-systems I enjoy. I just find them more intuitive than trying to figure out what the heck a certain stat does in, say, Wizardry or some one-off roleplaying system. I'd much rather have the "gameplay" experience of making a character in a system I know and love, which Solasta provides by using the 5E SRD. Recently played Might & Magic X; it was fine but I missed having a game system that was as comfortable to me as a glove, like even Pathfinder's "Wrath" is when I make a character because I know the tabletop system inside and out due to years of exposure. I don't like reinventing the wheel and I don't generally think any video game designers have come close to making a turn-based combat system as good as the tabletop ones that already exist and have been adapted for that purpose. So just use a good turn-based game system if you're making a turn-based game; lots of decent ones exist in the public domain. (Not JUST the 3.5 and 5E SRDs.)

So that's "gameplay" for me, along with including an easy to use, intuitive UI. Give me a great UI with a complex system I know - say Pathfinder's "Wrath" with some improvements and tweaks to their UI and that would be an almost perfect game in my book… gameplay wise. Story wise, it's just hard to pin down what a "good" story in a game is for me. Baldur's Gate 2 had it - that was a cool story to me, from the time you wake up in the "evil wizard's lab" until well after you're searching for your lost companion. Skyrim's "story" sucked but the game was good in spite of that because you could make your own story by wandering around and doing whatever you wanted. I mean… Solasta's "story" was serviceable to show off their very good adaptation of the D&D rules but it was certainly nothing too special.

All that having been said… I have no idea why companies ask gamers what they want. People don't know what they want until you show them what they want. Gamers are among the worst offenders here and I have seen many a game killed by "listening to the fans" and/or community to the point where it becomes a game made by committee and certainly not art… or rather, kind of like the "art" you see forcibly produced in old-school Communist countries. Glorify the state, please the fan base and all of that. In reality, artistic creativity doesn't come from group consensus and neither have any good games that I can think of.
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November 18th, 2021, 11:35
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post
This is exactly how it is. Except for the paycheck part, and that nobody limits work between 9-5 anymore. Though there seems to be a number of indie devs who do that on top of another job, so the hours may vary.

Not that it's relevant here.
That's how it is for code monkeys indeed. They should work on doing mobile apps, or maybe apply to Facebook or Twitch. I hear they pay well.

If you don't work for the greatness of what you are doing, with passion and conviction, and you're just looking at the clock so that it's 5 and you can finally shut off the computer and be done with it for the day stay off my movies, books and games though, thanks.

Or, you could ask random people how they want your next game to be. If you're untalented, have no vision, and will just sell yourself to the highest bidder, there's no fault in just making it public anyway.
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November 18th, 2021, 11:43
Originally Posted by FurtiveNyctophile View Post
IAll that having been said… I have no idea why companies ask gamers what they want. People don't know what they want until you show them what they want. Gamers are among the worst offenders […]
I don't know - from your post above, it sounds like you know what you want but aren't you a gamer yourself?

I think the survey posted by TA consists of pretty simple set of questions - I'd assume most of gamers know their preferences at that level.
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