Risen - No DRM

Imagine if Troika had come out with online activation for all of their games ... or SirTech ... or Black Isle ... or ... well, you get the picture. I want to play these games 10 years from now like I play FO1 & 2 now, without having to get a crack to do so.

DRM has been removed for all the games that i have purchased maybe a month or two after relase, so it's not a problem. It doesnt serve any purpose after a crack is realsed so usualy they remove it.
 
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I've installed dozens of games that used Securom or Starforce over the years, and never had a problem. I think the horror stories about those programs are greatly exaggerated. Although there is no doubt that some people have definitely had issues with them.
Well, I have a problem with these DRM because some of their vesions don't work on Windows 7! So I can't play TOCA Race Driver 2 and several other games just because version of their DRM is incompatibile with my system.

Really? Because I seem to remember that using any way to circumvent the protection system that comes with the game is illegal.
That's right, it is illegal.
 
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False. Splinter Cell Chaos Theory took a very long time to crack and that's because it used Starforce. I don't remember exactly how long, but I think it took about 6 month to crack. That's 6 months where people that wanted to play it had to buy it.

There were some others I can't recall as well - there was an article showing how effective the draconian EA system was at beating 'week 1' pirates, thus ensuring max initial profits.
 
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DRM has been removed for all the games that i have purchased maybe a month or two after relase, so it's not a problem. It doesnt serve any purpose after a crack is realsed so usualy they remove it.

How did that happen?
 
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How did that happen?

it happened during a patch. bioshock even had some limitation of times you could install it, they removed that quite fast, maybe a month after relase. i think gta iv had that too, but i've installed it numerous times now and there's no problem so i guess its removed there too..
 
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I never had any problems with Securom or Starforce. They never broke my dvd drive, nor did it happen to anyone close to me. The mass-hysteria that happened from Starforce was simply because most people had no idea what was going on, and they just kept screaming on every board, about how bad starforce is.

Maybe you are not using any of the software in their black list ( nero , demon tools etc) , you do not care when it calls back home . Note that both nero and demon tools are legal software .

http://www.reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=104

this link above explains everything on securom.

Uninstalling starforce also removes parts of your windows ...and without getting all technical or posting links Egosoft released a patch to have starforce removed from X2-the threat after public outcry , they know better.

False. Splinter Cell Chaos Theory took a very long time to crack and that's because it used Starforce. I don't remember exactly how long, but I think it took about 6 month to crack. That's 6 months where people that wanted to play it had to buy it.

No idea about very long time , the longest to my knowledge is Sacred 2 (~10 days -the cracking team made some comments here and there ) .

Really? Because I seem to remember that using any way to circumvent the protection system that comes with the game is illegal.

Paying for a game you pay for the right to use the software , even after cracking it you are exercising the right of using the software , modificating is legal , that's why people are free to mod .
On the other hand what some developers do is illegal (installing 3rd party software) but this will be very long to debate.

Anyway, i am not against non invasive DRM that does not turn against the legal owner , his/her PC and his/her sanity and does not slow down the game , keys (like in mount&blade) and installers ( like Europa Universalis's expansions) IMHO are the way to go; Risen shall use some short of DRM for it's digital version so people are not tempted to upload it in RS .
 
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Maybe you are not using any of the software in their black list ( nero , demon tools etc) , you do not care when it calls back home . Note that both nero and demon tools are legal software .
I'm using both of those and didn't have any problems.

Paying for a game you pay for the right to use the software , even after cracking it you are exercising the right of using the software , modificating is legal , that's why people are free to mod .
Modding is a whole different thing from reverse engineering. Even if you're just copying a crack you're basically reverse engineering indirectly.
 
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Maybe you are not using any of the software in their black list ( nero , demon tools etc) , you do not care when it calls back home . Note that both nero and demon tools are legal software .

You mean Daemon Tools? I've have it installed for years and never had any issues with it.
 
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I'm using both of those and didn't have any problems.


You mean Daemon Tools? I've have it installed for years and never had any issues with it.

http://forum.daemon-tools.cc/f40/problem-newest-yasu-daemon-tools-securom-18950/

Post number 3 , i hope that you did read article from reclaimyourgame.com

Modding is a whole different thing from reverse engineering. Even if you're just copying a crack you're basically reverse engineering indirectly.

Indirectly and without harming anyone or violating any law , i am still a legal owner of the software, actually i am helping the developer not to break the law by installing his shitty 3rd party software i never agreed to had .
 
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Indirectly and without harming anyone or violating any law , i am still a legal owner of the software, actually i am helping the developer not to break the law by installing his shitty 3rd party software i never agreed to had .

Are you kidding me? It's illegal to circumvent the security system, and you owning that piece of software does not give you the right to do whatever you want with it. Any decent End User License Agreement has that clause. The fact that you're not hurting anyone isn't in question.

Example: WoW EULA.
... You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

A. in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, or create derivative works based on the Game; provided, however, that you may make one (1) copy of the Game Client and the Manuals for archival purposes only;
 
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Are you kidding me? It's illegal to circumvent the security system, and you owning that piece of software does not give you the right to do whatever you want with it. Any decent End User License Agreement has that clause. The fact that you're not hurting anyone isn't in question.

Example: WoW EULA.

First of all i agreed to buy the game not it's third party application , second EULAs accessible after buying the product are invalid in most of Europe (actually in here -Greece even if it is accessible before but written with fonts smaller than the rest of the text on the box it is still invalid).....too bad End User License Agreements are not printed, they could be used as toilet paper.

Also in the ethical side of things why to use a security system that makes legal owner's life miserable? I did bought "spore" , why i must have limited activations and draconian securom since those are set to stop pirates?

So because a small minority of people have actually had problems, that means it's malware?

It is not small i just posted one link as an example and yes when it acts like a pimp in your PC telling you what programs you can use and what you can not it is malware.
 
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it happened during a patch. bioshock even had some limitation of times you could install it, they removed that quite fast, maybe a month after relase. i think gta iv had that too, but i've installed it numerous times now and there's no problem so i guess its removed there too..

Yeah I remember that, its when I decided to buy it. But Securom is still installed even via Steam :(
 
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it happened during a patch. bioshock even had some limitation of times you could install it, they removed that quite fast, maybe a month after relase. i think gta iv had that too, but i've installed it numerous times now and there's no problem so i guess its removed there too..

Oh cool - I don't remember it happening that fast, but that is what happens when you are watching closely right at that moment.
 
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It is not small i just posted one link as an example and yes when it acts like a pimp in your PC telling you what programs you can use and what you can not it is malware.

I think JDR's and danutz' point was that it doesn't and I can 100% confirm that as well. I've had Daemon Tools installed for a long time and was playing SecuROM protected games all the time (no StarForce games though). Never ever had a single issue or SecuROM telling me to uninstall Daemon Tools. Not once. Ever.
Doesn't mean that I don't believe that it does happen to some people but I have a hard time believing that it is a really common issue.

No idea about very long time , the longest to my knowledge is Sacred 2 (~10 days -the cracking team made some comments here and there ) .

Well, I'm sure that there is quite a long list of games where it took longer than the 10 days you mentioned but for starters German Wikipedia's entry on StarForce mentions 400 days for Splinter Cell: CT).

DRM was all the rage for MP3s (from a business POV, not according to users), now the business-world is finally realizing they were probably mistaken. They had been told so from the beginning, but weren't listening. If not stupid, maybe short-sighted?

I don't know about that, Arhu. The music industry has suffered a decrease of 29% (~ US$4 billion) since its peak in 1999 (source). Again: We're talking about F-O-U-R B-I-L-L-I-O-N dollars gone up in smoke.

This is despite the fact that the install base has increased like crazy since gazillions of CD players, DVD players, and especially devices capable of playing back mp3s (iPod et al) have been sold in the last decade. There is absolutely no doubt that the relatively easy availability of "free" music has played a major role in the decline of the sales of music.

The article I linked to is from April 2008 and I don't remember when the major record labels announced a retreat from their strict DRM schemes but I'm just as curious as the next guy whether the removal of DRM is going to do the music industry any good. I severely doubt it given the trend since 1999.

Of course the music industry is in the lucky position to have quite a few alternative sources of revenue like concert ticket sales, merchandise, licensing music for movies etc. but the game industry just doesn't have any significant alternative revenue streams.
So I think it's a lot easier for the music industry to pull out of DRM (which certainly was a customer service nightmare as well when you had crying 12 year old teenagers calling up the support hotline and bitching about some song not playing back on their iPod ;) ).

Therefore, I think that game publishers (rightfully) have a much harder time to drop DRM entirely. If they do (like EA who seem to be pulling out of DRM) then I believe it is only to cut down on said support costs. Spore as a pretty casual game must have been a nightmare for EA's customer support when millions of John Does rang up the EA hotline to complain about limited installs after dad and the kids installed the game and no installs remained for mom or uncle Bob or neighbor Frank or whoever...
 
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SecuROM doesn't interfere with DT. It doesn't, ironically and IIRC, because DT installs a rootkit whose access is at a higher level than SecuROM (which despite installing null registry entries, one of the tell tales of a rootkit, doesn't actually use one. The null entries are to stop accidental deletion)

There were some others I can't recall as well - there was an article showing how effective the draconian EA system was at beating 'week 1' pirates, thus ensuring max initial profits.
The one I've seen quoted most often is the one from the TweakGuides guy. As with just about every statistic he quotes it does not show anything like what he claims and he uses completely arbitrary and cherry picked statistics to 'prove' exactly what he wants (as a general example of the patent bias evident throughout his diatribe, he claims no one 'proving' that Starforce gibbed DVD drives when they offered a prize for proof 'proves' it didn't happen, but does not mention the small fact that you had to (1) use Starforce's picked hardware for your test and (2) fly to and stay in Moscow on your own coin in order to take part in their so called 'challenge').

Specifically, on activation, he claimed this lowered piracy rates based on cherry picked stats, ie he compared only activation based games that weren't on the 'top ten downloaded' list against non-drmed games that were, and further didn't have a clue what 'rate' means. ie, if you compare the rate of piracy for three games released within weeks of each other that actually are on the list the two with activation (FC2, RA3) had far higher rates of piracy (number pirated as compared to actual sales) than the one which didn't (Fallout 3). In fact, his own stats proved exactly the opposite of what he claimed- the game released Oct 2008 on that list without activation had fewest pirate copies when compared to its actual sales.

Activation was a disaster and at least EA has actually acknowledged that in a way, even if their 'stEAm' solution per C&C4 is probably going to be even worse. EA published figures it thought showed how little trouble it was causing but if you actually looked at them you found that 3 months after release nearly a fifth of people who'd bought Spore, that most casual of games, had one or fewer activations left. Going by their figures around 20,000 people had already exceeded their activation limit.
 
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SecuROM doesn't interfere with DT. It doesn't, ironically and IIRC, because DT installs a rootkit whose access is at a higher level than SecuROM (which despite installing null registry entries, one of the tell tales of a rootkit, doesn't actually use one. The null entries are to stop accidental deletion)

Is this confirmed? I wasn't aware that Daemon Tools installed a rootkit. Do you have any links to more info on that?
 
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Add me as another with Daemon Tools and not a single problem, ever.

And me another. Nor has DT or the others ever registered as malware by Norton.
 
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