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February 8th, 2009, 01:27
What is this dumbibg down feature you're speaking off? Is it the more accesible interface, the fact that in ME you can just press A to shoot your enemies… or that Bioware actually are taking some major risks with both Mass Effect and Jade Empire
--- not just churning out the same game time after time with minor alterations…

As for my 400,000 estimates, I'm sorry…I just remembered what the guys from Troika said; they sold 400,000 copies of Arcanum…and didn't make it. But yes, back 10 or 12 years ago, a sale of maybe 150,000 copies was considered to be great
Of course, this was before the dot-com collapse and before major media companies had gotten an interest in computer games….
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February 8th, 2009, 01:42
Originally Posted by aries100 View Post
What is this dumbibg down feature you're speaking off? Is it the more accesible interface, the fact that in ME you can just press A to shoot your enemies… or that Bioware actually are taking some major risks with both Mass Effect and Jade Empire
--- not just churning out the same game time after time with minor alterations…
I've detailed exactly what I'm talking about on numerous occasions.

The dumbing down is directly related to two aspects:

The character system
The loot system

The rest of the game is at approximately the same level as KotOR - which in itself is already SIGNIFICANTLY dumbed down from Baldur's Gate - both in terms of narrative and mechanics complexity.

Mass Effect is, beyond this additional dumbing down, almost EXACTLY the same game as KotOR, just set in a different universe.

So please, enough with this "taking chances" already. We've had a Bioware developer explain their process of refining and establishing what they're good at and then re-using those elements OVER AND OVER. They're redoing the same thing whilst making it ever more accessible. If that's a risk, then we have diferent understandings of the word.

The last risk they took was Neverwinter Nights.

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February 8th, 2009, 01:44
Anyway - I'm off to bed.

I tire of this endless circle of repeating myself - so I'll attempt to stay away from this thread in the morrow.

I wish you all a good night when you get to that.

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February 8th, 2009, 04:38
I'd say Jade Empire clearly represents a risk, at least in terms of setting against their proven market (western high fantasy).

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread in my opinion.
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February 8th, 2009, 06:43
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post

The dumbing down is directly related to two aspects:
The loot system…
That's the rogue talking…
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February 8th, 2009, 07:21
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
I think it is mainstream because the 'bar to entry' is extremely low. I mean, even for NWN you have to *want* to play a spreadsheet game to really get it. For Kotor, you have the fact that it is Star Wars, making it immediately accessible, then the nice graphics and immediate plot intrigue and development, followed by the fairly easy difficulty.

I gauge the way my kids play - my older son is really a geek like me, so he'll try just about anything. Younger son needs a 'hook', and NWN and such are no interest to him - but KotOR was.

Thanks txa, that makes a little more sense now. Although those aren't entirely bad things when it comes to a rpg with the exception of difficulty and immediate plot intrigue. Now that you mentioned it I did pump up the difficulty to hard when playing KOTOR to even have a remote chance of getting killed.

Man this is one hot topic in the forum, I was only gone a day and we're already up to page 9. It seems like a lot of people are really looking foreward to what Bioware has to offer or there wouldn't be this kind of traffic. Whether your pissed off about the delay or mad about the direction Bio seems to be moving in, anything that generates this much talk is definatly a good thing for RPGs if you ask me.

I must of sold out because all this hate towards the direction BIo is taking is lost on me because I liked Mass Effect, Jade Empire, KOTOR 1 and 2 and everything Bio has ever made with the future exception of that silly Sonic The Hedgehog game. Although Jade Empire could of been a little less twitch friendly with the combat, but still quite enjoyable.
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February 8th, 2009, 08:23
Threads like this remind me of when I was out of work in 2003 and played BG2, Gothic 2, Divine Divinity, and Wizardry 8 in succession. I've never been more immersed and entertained by games since. Great discussion here guys, don't hate on DA too much, he just wants his damn games back!
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February 8th, 2009, 08:26
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I wouldn't call it "accomplish".

I'd rather call it "waving the white flag".


Which would surely make me a whiner in some people's eyes (hello, Esseliad, darling ! )
He's right in that he can probably do without participating in discussions with you, though, given that in general you bring nothing to the table except verbal diarrhea.

Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
I'd say Jade Empire clearly represents a risk, at least in terms of setting against their proven market (western high fantasy).
But then, the story and characters are still recycled from other Bioware games. I imagine that they were trying to capitalize on the JRPG market where China-influenced settings are more common, but it looks like they failed to meet even the standards of JRPG fans: your average JRPG has a more complicated combat system than JE and, dare I say, a more complex plot.
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February 8th, 2009, 08:34
The reason I say "if you want feature X then play game Y" is because game Y is loaded up with feature X.

I suppose what I'm saying is that not all games are going to be all things to you. As long as the quality is right up there, I don't need every game I play to do all the things I want. I loved playing through Zelda Phantom Hourglass on the DS, a game which didn't have any choice and conseqence at all. It didn't have any real character system either. I loved every minute of the game though, because of its sheer quality. I'm not going to criticise it for being the game it is, I'm going to say that it did a couple of the things I enjoy really, superbly well, and was a great game.

Recent Bioware games have lacked certain elements that I enjoyed a lot in their earlier games. However, they still do a number of the things I like really well - certainly JE and KoTOR did. They were both excellent games overall. I don't criticise them for not doing the things they don't do, I just enjoy them for what they are.

WoW does the number-crunching stuff really well. Bio games do story really well, Zelda on the DS did control scheme and puzzles superbly well, etc. If DA maintains a high level of quality throughout, and does some of the things I like really well, then I'll be very happy with it.
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February 8th, 2009, 09:11
Originally Posted by Essaliad View Post
your average JRPG has a more complicated combat system than JE and, dare I say, a more complex plot.
Uh…no it doesn't. Take it from someone who has played close to, if not more than, 100 JRPGs over the years.
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February 8th, 2009, 15:13
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
The rest of the game is at approximately the same level as KotOR - which in itself is already SIGNIFICANTLY dumbed down from Baldur's Gate - both in terms of narrative and mechanics complexity.
What do you mean by mechanics complexity? My impression was that DA had significantly more complex mechanics, as they are not restrained by having to use systems based on table top games. So we've got float accuracy for the equations which themselves take into account far more factors than a dice rolling game could ever use.
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February 8th, 2009, 17:11
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Uh…no it doesn't. Take it from someone who has played close to, if not more than, 100 JRPGs over the years.
I agree - I have played tons of jRPGs, as my string of articles shows …
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February 8th, 2009, 18:24
That Bioware is not taking chances is just not true. Yes, the… how to put it… frame is similar, meaning you do quests, lots of dialog, you have a pool of companions you can take with you, stuff like that. But the actual gameplay vary greatly, from top down RTS with pause style to arcady action combat to 3rd person shooter.
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February 8th, 2009, 21:06
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
What do you mean by mechanics complexity? My impression was that DA had significantly more complex mechanics, as they are not restrained by having to use systems based on table top games. So we've got float accuracy for the equations which themselves take into account far more factors than a dice rolling game could ever use.
DArtagnan was refering to Mass Effect, not Dragon Age.
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February 8th, 2009, 21:18
While we're complaining, my biggest disappointment with DA was no multiplayer coop. It would've been really nice to play this game on LAN.

ed: English is not my primary language.
Last edited by hishadow; February 8th, 2009 at 22:00.
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February 8th, 2009, 21:20
Why are people refering to DA in the past tense? What it already released and I just wasn't aware?
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February 8th, 2009, 22:08
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Why are people refering to DA in the past tense? What it already released and I just wasn't aware?
Apparently this was the final nail in the coffin and the game is now properly d0med.
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February 8th, 2009, 23:16
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
DArtagnan was refering to Mass Effect, not Dragon Age.
Beg pardon. (Thought this was a DA thread )
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February 8th, 2009, 23:42
Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
Beg pardon. (Thought this was a DA thread )
You assume a 1:1 relationship between what a thread is 'about' and what it is ABOUT?
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February 9th, 2009, 20:14
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
You assume a 1:1 relationship between what a thread is 'about' and what it is ABOUT?
I know, I keep rolling a 1 on my comprehend internet check.
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