Kingmaker - Chris Avellone Interview

Key received, too bad there's no pre-loading so I can play as soon as I get home from work tomorrow.

Consider me hyped

Pre-load has been fixed on Steam!

Pre-load is running and the game will be available 5 pm Berlin time, for those interested.

I'm preloading the game now too!!!

Arkadia7 said:

The problem with rtwp is that you have to get it just right…that isn't easy. Pace is super critical, and Baldur's Gate actually pulled it off successfully. It was slow enough to actually observe the battle as it happened, and enjoy the tactical aspects, but fast enough that it didn't get boring or take too long. They definitely somehow hit upon the Goldilocks principle, where it was damn near perfect.

From what I've seen, the combat looks somewhat fast in Kingmaker. Almost like you just direct your party at the monster, and they are smooshing things and there isn't much else to it. Maybe its because I am seeing low level enemies and low level battles in the videos, but it doesn't look very compelling like a Baldur's Gate style rtwp combat.

Anyway, I'm also somewhat surprised to see silver coin taking such a hard line position in favor of turn-based. Considering he is always singing the praises of Pillars of Eternity 2, which is also rtwp combat.

Anyhow, I do think there are several promising things about the game - the user interface design is fantastic, the rpg system looks very intricate and complex and interesting, and the world graphics- though a shade cartoony - are pleasing to the eye. It just comes down to if they totally missed the mark on the combat or not. If they screwed up the combat, I will probably skip it. If the combat is done to a point where it is consistently engaging and fun, again, like the Goldilocks Principle - not too easy, not too hard, not too fast, not too slow, but…just right. Then I will very likely get the game.

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It is not just speed of combat, IE games were based on AD&D which was based on lots of missing and little amount of spells to use. Most casters didn't use spells until they really needed to and party winning often fell down to martial classes.
Later when NWN1 and NWN2 arrive combat goes faster because D&D 3.0 and 3.5 keep similar armor values but up the attack bonuses and damage dealt. Casters now have 2x more spells to cast than in AD&D.
Now combat seems to go faster because everyone hits more often and does more damage and combat ending spells are used more often.

Pathfinder is often called D&D 3.75, and it keeps that combat pace of D&D 3.5.

Silver Coin said:

The difference is that they're trying to create a real-time game out of a turn-based system, whereas PoE2 was always designed to be real time. It reflects in the mechanics.

Pathfinder is meant to be turn-based, it's more fun turn-based, and I don't understand why they feel the need to remove the turn-based element. Same with Baldurs Gate.

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While goal of PoE was to make a real time system they fucked it up massively.
Giving everyone so many active abilities makes the system fit more for TB than RTwP.

As it is, PoE1 (and PoE2) need you to pause more often than IE games did so to be most efficient with your party actions.

PoE2 has advanced AI scripting and controllable combat speed. You don't need to pause.

Silver Coin said:

PoE2 has advanced AI scripting and controllable combat speed. You don't need to pause.

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So the solution to bad mechanics behind the game is to let it play the game for you?
Are you serious right now?
Would you let the game AI play the game for you in a TB combat system?

1. I don't accept that they are bad mechanics. Having fighters that aren't just meat shields in combat is a good thing.

2. It's not playing the game for you. It's removing tedious micromanagement. You still need to build your character, plan out your strategy, and adapt when necessary.

3. Is click spamming enemies as a fighter in BG supposed to be less boring?

4. I would be all for having the option to program the AI in a turn-based game.

You can also play the game in slow motion, so pacing isn't an issue in PoE2.

Silver Coin said:

That about sums up Pathfinder. It's an over-the-top parody of the Forgotten Realms.

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Isn't that confusing the setting (golarion / forgotten realms) with the rule set (pathfinder / d&d)?

I know these are often tightly connected, but it's not like you have to design an over-the-top setting when you develop a pathfinder game.

I got the GOG version so no pre-loading for me. I am actually rather intrigued by the prospect of playing a genuine d&d like game again. Intrigued through not yet excited.

If this game is what I think it is...boom goes the dynamite!

Cacheperl said:

Isn't that confusing the setting (golarion / forgotten realms) with the rule set (pathfinder / d&d)?

I know these are often tightly connected, but it's not like you have to design an over-the-top setting when you develop a pathfinder game.

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Unlike D&D, Pathfinder only has one well known setting. Homebrewing is uncommon.

Silver Coin said:

Unlike D&D, Pathfinder only has one well known setting. Homebrewing is uncommon.

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When my group switched to Pathfinder instead of D&D 4, we just continued to run games in Forgotten Realms.

Silver Coin said:

1. I don't accept that they are bad mechanics. Having fighters that aren't just meat shields in combat is a good thing.

2. It's not playing the game for you. It's removing tedious micromanagement. You still need to build your character, plan out your strategy, and adapt when necessary.

3. Is click spamming enemies as a fighter in BG supposed to be less boring?

4. I would be all for having the option to program the AI in a turn-based game.

You can also play the game in slow motion, so pacing isn't an issue in PoE2.

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By letting fighters have abilities that are auto activated by game AI you did nothing but have fighters that autoattack but their autoattack now has a fancy name. This is same shit D&D4 pulled and was killed fast.

And if you are not using AI than the game is not playable for a RTwP. And no, slow time didn't help in PoE1. I used slow time and plenty of auto pause (before game even had any AI so I didn't even have an option to play fighters like in IE games) and that gameplay was terrible.

Luckily Pathfinder seems like a properly designed D&D like game.

TheRealFluent said:

Especially with dice-rolls. Misses, critical misses, ugh. ToEE was about the limit I could take of that sort of slow combat where a boss encounter could take an hour, mostly because of missed attacks.

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There's tons of missed attacks in BG, especially if you play with less than optimal fighters (e.g, those without maxed out strength or ranged attacks without max dex) This is actually the main reason why I've never even finished BG2. At a certain point I got tired of watching my fighters hack away at well armored opponents or having to engage in cheesy tactics like run off to a corner and wait for an enemy wizard's buff's and protection spells to wear off.

The assumption that an RPG with turn-based combat has to be slow & tedious is ridiculous. Yes, TB combat will tend to take slightly longer than RTwP with all things being equal. But there's lots of ways you can prevent it from dragging on. For one thing, have fewer hordes of weaker enemies that you have to spend time hacking through. You can reduce having enemies that are HP sponges as well. Have quick attack animations. Don't put lots of enemies very far from the player's party (or at least don't force TB combat mode to be initiated until you get closer or someone is attacked from a distance. Make combat less frequent overall. etc.

I know a lot of BG fans / fans of RTwP in general will praise the system for how it makes trash encounters relatively quick / tolerable. You know what else makes them tolerable? Not having them. "But I want to grind!" OK, have some type of arena where you can do to fight and gain XP. There's no reason an RPG has to constantly throw mooks at you. Repeatedly slaughtering goblins, kobolds, and gibberlings all the time isn't fun. Encountering smaller numbers of more powerful enemies is more fun anyway, IMO.

Archangel said:

By letting fighters have abilities that are auto activated by game AI you did nothing but have fighters that autoattack but their autoattack now has a fancy name.

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No, because you actually need to program when to activate the powers and in what situations, and not every behavioral setup is going to be optimal for every fight.

For tough battles, it's usually easier to just disable the AI completely rather than having to change the programming mid-fight.

And if you are not using AI than the game is not playable for a RTwP.

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Of course it's playable without the AI. I hardly use it myself.

And no, slow time didn't help in PoE1. I used slow time and plenty of auto pause (before game even had any AI so I didn't even have an option to play fighters like in IE games) and that gameplay was terrible.

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You must be confused. PoE1 did not give players the ability to slow time in combat. Only outside of combat.

Action speed is also slower in PoE2 than the first game. Some people have even complained that attacks are too slow and should be made faster.

Just to be clear, have you actually played PoE2 or are you just making assumptions based on your experience with the first game?

Only watched PoE2 on streams for now. Planning to play it one day. From what I have seen, it is a bit better but not that much.

You should preface that in the future. It's annoying when people act like they have firsthand experience with something only for it to become obvious they don't.

Anyways, I agree that combat was too hectic in the first game, but not at all with the sequel unless you're a very slow player, in which case these new features are helpful.

I did the whole linking my account thingie back a week or two ago, but when I go to the digital download section, it says I have no downloads available. I'm not sure what the current trend is with making people that supported the project jump through all these stupid hoops to get a bloody key, but I tell you, it's enough to make me swear off supporting products in the future.

Carnifex said:

I did the whole linking my account thingie back a week or two ago, but when I go to the digital download section, it says I have no downloads available. I'm not sure what the current trend is with making people that supported the project jump through all these stupid hoops to get a bloody key, but I tell you, it's enough to make me swear off supporting products in the future.

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Digital rewards were only made available today, so you should now be able to access your keys from the Owlcat backer website.