Witcher Playing it, finally.

Got around to playing this for real, as the patch did what it was supposed to and make the loading/saving comfortable enough to be non-issues.

I'm in Chapter 1, having played 5-6 hours total and I'm not impressed. Then again, I never was much of a linear story-focused CRPG guy so I knew this might be the case, but still. Too often, I feel like I'm basically being instructed what to do, in what order to do it, and what I can expect afterwards. Sort of like a drone being ordered around, and I'm much more about freedom of choice, exploration, and overall development of the experience. There are bad examples of that, sure, but games like Gothic (1 and 2) strike a wonderful balance between a coherent, deep story and freedom - which suits me very well.

The dialogue varies between interesting and surprisingly clumsy - given all the praise. I know about the translation issues, but I can't exactly appreciate fine dialogue unless I'm witnessing it myself. It strikes me as amateur-hour in too many ways.

It bothers me a lot that they re-used the same character models for so many NPCs, even within the same chapter. I think I already saw the same woman model for at least 4 important NPCs in chapter 1, and I'm far from done with it. That's pretty pathetic, actually. Also, I don't think I've seen anyone mention this, but I find the hands on the models EXTREMELY ugly and stiff. Every single NPC seems to have giant hands and they move their arms like gorillas. It just looks crap, and it's really too bad given the excellent quality of the faces.

Then, of course, the movement restrictions of the Aurora engine, but I knew about that going in. It's something I can get used to pretty quickly, but it's still kinda sad given the beauty of the world, which sort of beckons you to freely explore. I long to jump over fences, swim across lakes, and cross fields instead of needlessly waste time travelling the same areas over and over.

The combat system reminds me more of Dragon's Lair than a good tactical CRPG. It's nice looking, though, and when combined with the magic system and potions, it works alright. Definitely not the strong point of the game, however.

The best thing is the atmosphere and the fact that they're not holding back because of wanting to appeal to the mainstream.

Unfortunately, it's such an appealing feature to be "uncensored" simply because of the widespread standard of censoring, particularly in terms of sexual themes and american values - as most games we play are from the US. Being from Denmark, where we have a very relaxed attitude towards nudity and "adult" sexual content, it's not particularly exciting to have it in a game, except as a refreshing change from the typical US hysteria in this regard. So, unless it serves a specific purpose or the game does something useful with it, I'm afraid it doesn't make a mediocre game better for me. So far, it's been a case of rather laughable scenarios involving childish dialogue and clichéd sexual scenes - even so far as having a Mill "haunted" by the moans of a woman being satisfied by the big strong hero. I guess our standards must be pretty low, seeing as how people seem to enjoy the *cough* maturity *cough* of this game.

In any event, I'm obviously not the intended target audience, and I see where the appeal might lie for some. Though I'm frankly somewhat surprised to see so many apparent flaws in a game so - overall - well received. I know I'm still early in the game, but after half a dozen hours it should be clear what kind of game I'm playing, and what I can expect in non-story terms. I'll see if I can get around to playing more, but so far I'm not in any hurry.

Chapter 1 is quite linear, I agree. The game does open up more after that. Remember too, with your very valid criticism of the overused character models (and voice talent ) that this is a small studio creating its first game, so it doesn't have the budget a developer like Beth$oft has!! The question to ask yourself, is did they use their limited resources wisely!!

I agree with every point he made, I'm also not a big fan of The Witcher for those same reasons. Maybe I'll give it another try again someday, but not till it hits the bargain bin.

Well it's certainly not for everyone. Most of your complaints are certainly valid.
Just be careful with statements like "surprised to see so many apparent flaws in a game..." as if the flaws you mention should be readily apparent. People's hands being large and cumbersome, arms moving like gorillas and your statement "It just looks crap..." are not "apparent" flaws, they are personal opinion, and one in particular that I doubt many people share.

Opinions,opinions!!All are welcomed and all are respected.I agree with all your flaws you mentioned.The question is in what level do they bother you,or me or all the other players.It is clear that they bother you a lot.Me?No problem!And what about the merits?In what level do they fascinate you?Not much i think.Me?A lot!So,we have the same game with some merits and flows,accepted by all, and we have our subjective taste in games....so simple.

Jabberwocky said:

Well it's certainly not for everyone. Most of your complaints are certainly valid.
Just be careful with statements like "surprised to see so many apparent flaws in a game..." as if the flaws you mention should be readily apparent. People's hands being large and cumbersome, arms moving like gorillas and your statement "It just looks crap..." are not "apparent" flaws, they are personal opinion, and one in particular that I doubt many people share.

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Naturally, it's all my opinion and nothing more. However, I like to believe there are certain things that could reasonably be considered objective truths, and the size of the hands would definitely fit that category. The gorilla remark is, admittedly, a subjective addition but I find it hard to see how anyone could deny the overly large size of the hands and stiff nature of the animations related to them, but whatever.

I see where you're coming from, and it's always good form to add "in my opinion", I just forget it from time to time.

By that same token, you shouldn't be saying that only MOST of my claims are valid, as they merely represent my opinion and so they would have to be valid - all of them - as such, according to this good form. If you're talking about my claims in an objective sense, you're making yourself high judge when you're speaking to the validity of my claims, kinda like what I did when I called the flaws I perceived apparent.

But we're wasting time, and I think I made my point pretty clearly overall. I didn't intend to lessen the enjoyment of the game for anyone, and I'm glad people are so taken with it. I just, personally, fail to understand the level of praise shown around here and elsewhere, and wanted to chime in with an alternate viewpoint.

I take things like bad voice acting and weird animations as "quirky charm", they dont really bother me. The graphics look pretty awesome from where I'm sitting, I honestly must chuckle at someone being really critical about such minutia as what.. hands?

PS- And for the record, I think the hands look just fine!

Well I just got a great deal on a new copy off Ebay ($31.00), so I might be playing it sooner than I thought.

it's good the patches are arriving, then i might give it a try after i've finished Gothic3..

DArtagnan said:

By that same token, you shouldn't be saying that only MOST of my claims are valid, as they merely represent my opinion and so they would have to be valid - all of them - as such, according to this good form. If you're talking about my claims in an objective sense, you're making yourself high judge when you're speaking to the validity of my claims, kinda like what I did when I called the flaws I perceived apparent.

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Splitting hairs a bit, isn't that? I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and so by extension all opinions are technically 'valid,' as you say. But an "apparent flaw" is not an opinion - it is implied as being a 'fact' that 'everyone' knows about or should know about. But the trouble is that you are expressing an opinion about an aspect of art, which as we all know, is very subjective. Sure I might paint a picture that you percieve to be ill-porportioned, but who's to say 99% of the other viewers think it looks perfect? My original point (and why I said most of your arguements were sound), is that I truly don't believe that the majority of players (or at least enough to make supposed flaw 'apparent') would agree that the hands are all off. --- You could always run a poll to find out
Instead, such an arguement sounds nit-picky, and implies that others have a lessened awareness to detail by virtue of the fact that they haven't noticed it.

Anyway, getting to the real issue regarding the hands, could it be the way the graphics engine behaves rather than a modeling issue? Something I noticed with the game is that the camera has a "fish-eye" quality to it. That's when objects look like they are being viewed through a curved lens, and tend to distort as they move closer to the edges. Many 3-D games have this characteristic, and some are more apparent than others. I notice that at certain angles Geralt seems to have one huge arm while the one further away is tiny. Is this what you are referring to? If so then yes, I have noticed that. It is just a product of the camera focus (which I assume has to do with the engine) and not a model rendering issue.

The Gothic games do not have that characteristic at all. It sounds like you are a big fan (I am too.) But if that is the problem that's bothering you, all I can say is don't play Mount & Blade - it's ten times worse than The Witcher!

I agree with your findings Dartagnan.

Chapter 1 was a very medioker gaming experience. It took some time to come to terms with the game. I tried to play it with the strategic view, cause i like playing games like that. But once i started to use the over the shoulder view it started to connect to me on a Gothic (1-2) level.

As people pointed out, the game truly opens up in ACT 2 and ACT 3. Altough, if character model is a problem now, you would perhaps not be impressed with the continuation of the game.

Me i am truly inlove with it where i am right now. (Stopped playing and waited for the patch!).

I love games that makes the world feel alive with touches of reusing locations, NPCs and making them feel alive (which also keeps upp a frustration level when people isn't found )

Hope you stay with it and tell us what you think once you enter chapter III.

Edit:
Oh, i must add since i made a reference to Gothic 1-2. I have now got a reference to the "Sleeper"...

Even if the game gets up in tempo it really accelerate in frustration. I got into an ACT1 situation. Apparently didn't have enough swallow to proceed and the game punishing me.

Tips for everyone playing this game. Make sure you allways keeps some swallows, blizzards. All the time. This stuff got really stupid. And i couldn't really let the game flow but had to break up the game to several game days just to hunt for herbs and make potions. It really looks silly when somebody says: "They are after you". And three days later they still stand there sword ready.

I hope CD project learn something about gamedesgin. Not just cater for those who follow the right correct gameplan.

Hrmp. I can take lookalike NPC but i really having trouble with poor design. This is a make it or brake it point currently for me. Either i will go back 1 hour and replay the stuff, or i will never again play the witcher. This buggers me. I know that when i through with this it will all be fun again... but its so f*ing frustrating.

Yeah, damn games, keep challenging you. They really ought to put in a button with "win this fight" on it.

Are you playing on hard? 'Cause the "hard" button specifically says that potions will be necessary. This game doesn't shine unless it's on hard imho.

Well, i really like games that does it like this... but thats me.

After i replayed for a bit to get some swallows, and som blizzards i lived through the cutscenes - again - and now i come to my loving moment in videogames. I truly adore them. Right up there with the jump puzzle.

Well, guess i will search for a solution elsewhere...

And found it i did...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUOQLKjA9Fc&feature=related

Wonderful clip... I just got tired to figured out how to do it. Didn't know how many times i tried to get it right. Mr witcher mumbled alot of stuff that couldnt be heard trhough the sound... (Its definitly a spoiler, but keep it tagged if you like me - no wizkid in computer gaming, just a lazy one, thats want some fun! )

Its a Act III or beginning ACT IV... don't really know.

Jabberwocky said:

Splitting hairs a bit, isn't that? I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and so by extension all opinions are technically 'valid,' as you say. But an "apparent flaw" is not an opinion - it is implied as being a 'fact' that 'everyone' knows about or should know about. But the trouble is that you are expressing an opinion about an aspect of art, which as we all know, is very subjective. Sure I might paint a picture that you percieve to be ill-porportioned, but who's to say 99% of the other viewers think it looks perfect? My original point (and why I said most of your arguements were sound), is that I truly don't believe that the majority of players (or at least enough to make supposed flaw 'apparent') would agree that the hands are all off. --- You could always run a poll to find out
Instead, such an arguement sounds nit-picky, and implies that others have a lessened awareness to detail by virtue of the fact that they haven't noticed it.

Anyway, getting to the real issue regarding the hands, could it be the way the graphics engine behaves rather than a modeling issue? Something I noticed with the game is that the camera has a "fish-eye" quality to it. That's when objects look like they are being viewed through a curved lens, and tend to distort as they move closer to the edges. Many 3-D games have this characteristic, and some are more apparent than others. I notice that at certain angles Geralt seems to have one huge arm while the one further away is tiny. Is this what you are referring to? If so then yes, I have noticed that. It is just a product of the camera focus (which I assume has to do with the engine) and not a model rendering issue.

The Gothic games do not have that characteristic at all. It sounds like you are a big fan (I am too.) But if that is the problem that's bothering you, all I can say is don't play Mount & Blade - it's ten times worse than The Witcher!

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Yes, I was splitting hairs, but that was deliberate

I tried to make a point about the futility of pointing out whether my opinion was fully valid or not, if we had to stick to good form - a request of which, in my mind, is often the same thing as splitting hairs. I guess I didn't accomplish that. In any case, I didn't want this to turn into yet another anal debate about the nature of subjectivity and I already conceded that I should have added "in my opinion".

About the hand graphics.

I feel that this part of my original critique has uintentionally taken much of the energy of this thread, and I lament that. I didn't mean to say that the core problem of The Witcher had to do with the hands, and indeed I brought it up as a side-issue of a larger problem, namely the severe recycling of character models. But even that concern is not really why I don't find the game appealing to the same extent as many others seem to do.

I think the main reason I was so disappointed, is the clumsy dialogue and as a consequence the utterly derivative nature of the moral choices in the game. Of course, I can only speak in relation to how far I've gotten - and I'm now at the very beginning of chapter 2.


The dialogue is subpar and childish in way too many conversations, and that is something I certainly didn't expect, based on what I got from reading about the game. Maybe I'm too demanding here, and I guess it has to do with hype and in this area I definitely expected more.

My secondary concerns are directly related to the gameplay, and among them is the whack-a-mole nature of the combat system and the Aurora engine limitations related to exploration and movement in general. The former is especially sad, given the introduction in the manual about going old-school and the game being made by gamers. Reading that, you come to expect a combat system with a lot more tactical nuances than clicking in sequence to execute combos. They obviously surrendered to the instant gratification crowd with this action driven approach, at least that's how I see it. Nothing wrong with that, in this harsh corporate industry, but don't pass it off as old-school.

Finally, I simply don't like the linear nature of the game, which might change as I go along, but I doubt it will change enough. It's way too rigid in its quest structure, and that not only makes me feel controlled by the designers, it also makes things more predictable than I prefer them to be. That is likely because I've played A LOT of CRPGs in the last couple of decades, but I guess even inexperienced gamers will be able to predict how their game flow will evolve in several cases.

All of the above is merely my opinion, and nothing more. It's not meant to represent the truth, except as how I personally perceive it. I'm more than willing to go in-depth and have a serious debate about the various facets of the game, but I don't want to waste our time going back and forth about whether or not it's valid or having people point out that nothing I say is objectively verifiable. I'm pretty sick of that by now, and it would be nice to simply disagree if that urge arises.

Tips for everyone playing this game. Make sure you allways keeps some swallows, blizzards. All the time. This stuff got really stupid. And i couldn't really let the game flow but had to break up the game to several game days just to hunt for herbs and make potions.

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Well one of the core aspects of this game is hunting herbs and mixing potions. Its what witchers do to gain upperhand.

DArtagnan said:

you come to expect a combat system with a lot more tactical nuances than clicking in sequence to execute combos. They obviously surrendered to the instant gratification crowd with this action driven approach, at least that's how I see it. Nothing wrong with that, in this harsh corporate industry, but don't pass it off as old-school.

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I agree 100%, this is my main complaint with the game.

There's nothing more annoying than watching my sword pass right through an enemy and not do any damage just because I didn't click the mouse button at the precise moment that the game wanted me to. I will never understand why they didn't implement real time combat in this game, or at least the option to use it.

mute said:

Wonderful clip... I just got tired to figured out how to do it. Didn't know how many times i tried to get it right.

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Funny, I thought that fight was easy bordering on clichéd. It took me about three tries to figure out that boss was not beatable by swordfighting (the single-hit kill was a bit of a giveaway), and once that's solved, the rest was pretty damn obvious. I can think of more games that use this mechanic than don't -- the end boss in NWN2, the cannibal boss in Jade Empire, the end boss in KOTOR, to name three off the top of my head. (Hell, it's almost like a game isn't quite complete without the boss-you-can-only-beat-by-destroying-the-environment fight.)

There are some genuinely nasty boss fights coming up near the endgame, though, so if you can't handle these, The Witcher may not be the game for you.

Dez said:

Well one of the core aspects of this game is hunting herbs and mixing potions. Its what witchers do to gain upperhand.

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To quote Geralt, "a witcher without his potions is half a witcher."