Fluent Vents about the state of the gaming industry! (Pillars of Eternity related)

akarthis said:

Forget video games. Do you buy anything else unfinished or "in progress" at full price?

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You mean OTHER than every computer operating system, productivity software, media player, and every app for every mobile device ever?

Most items at the grocery store are in an "unfinished state". I'm sure we can come up with tons of examples.

akarthis said:

Forget video games. Do you buy anything else unfinished or "in progress" at full price?

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Me? I did.
I'm a proud owner of Neptune Pine, a smartwatch that was kickstartered.
Unfinished and in progress product I "paid for" without a question.
The price was almost the same as later in shops, a dollar less or more.

I almost did it for this product too:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/snappower/snappower-charger-a-usb-charger-in-a-coverplate-no

But then I discovered I don't have to as there are similar products available out there already, perhaps with even better design, like this one for example:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...-Socket-EU-Wall-Plug/1502953_32263801282.html

So in my case yes, I'll "buy" an unfinished product if it's something that looks useful.

Toff said:

Most items at the grocery store are in an "unfinished state". I'm sure we can come up with tons of examples.

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It only takes time for them to mature. Beside, that is food and eating is compulsory.
This allows to sell shit to some people, especially if this move allows to reduce prices for favoured customers.

Crowdfunding has led to an increase in video games released while some core features are still incomplete and subject to heavy change.

fatknacker50 said:

Stop stealing my thunder, *mumbles* bloody MMX

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For the record, I was, clumsily, referring to MMIX. Which by almost any account is worse.

pibbur who considers himself number 13

For precisely this reason I only buy "old" completed games that are well past this stage. I bought MMX right after they announced expansions and further development were over. I'm very tempted to pre-order Witcher 3 but I keep reminding myself that waiting will get me a better game. Impulse control, and sound economics. And a strong memory of how deeply disappointed I was by Arcanum that I bought on release. I fell for the pre-release hype in a big way. Never believed any hype since.

Michael Ellis said:

As the saying goes, for me you are preaching to the choir. I usually wait 1 to 2 years after release before I buy a game. By then they are patched, less expensive, GOTY/Director's editions include DLC, and established mods rise like cream to the top.

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Late to the party but I'll pipe in and say this is exactly what I do also. I've enough of a backlog to keep me amused and don't need the aggravation.


-kaos

Awww, I missed this whole topic because I was busy having fun playing PoE.

akarthis said:

Forget video games. Do you buy anything else unfinished or "in progress" at full price?

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Books. Most of them have all sorts of editing issues and sometimes the stories don't quite make sense. Textbooks are even worse - they always get SOMETHING wrong, typically many somethings.

Of course, with books you're lucky if they even put something up on a web page so you can fix the book yourself. A few will make new "editions" (read: versions) but those scum bags make you buy the entire book over again to get them!!

P.S. Prima guides can actually be fun for games that you know are going to change a lot. I had plenty of fun reading my City of Heroes guide years after the game released. Ah... the days before the 5th Column got infected by aliens and turned into The Council...

A book is not an unfinished product. Maybe a bad product. Unfinished would be to end suddenly at x page and had blank pages after
. At grocery stores you are not buying unfinished products while knowing you are buying it. Someone Is fooling you into buying them

The factor which seems to get brushed under the carpet a lot in this thread is the issue of scale. Some people have mentioned it, but then the thread soon returns to a battle of extremes, as if that's the only way some people know how to communicate.

That Alien game recently was released with appalling bugs. Obvious bugs. In your face bugs. Laughing stock bugs.

Bloodborne on the other hand was released with minor bugs. You'd have to know why they were a bug before you could identify them as a bug. Background, hidden bugs. Bugs that people with beards could twiddle away with while everyone else happily played on regardless.

They are both "large complex games with budgets, teams, blah blah blah".

Also, on the question of no game ever being bug-free. I'm not so sure. If you exclude all those minor background bugs that don't necessarily impact anything that topic-worthy then there must be hundreds of games that have achieved that. I'm affraid to list any specifically because I never kept a record of all the games I bought vanilla and then tracked their bug history and would likely get called out, but it's pretty obvious that some titles are more known for bugs whereas as others are known more for their reliability.

Obsidian are not known for their reliability. Luckily for Obsidian, most of their money fans are the type of people who don't care so much, because there's very few options in that particular niche-market, but for games like the Alien game, there's a shit-tonne of choice for them to say, no, eff that, I'll buy a better made game.

So it's a lot more 'piece of string' than a lot of people are making out.

Which Alien game are you referring to? Alien Isolation is the most recent Alien game, but I haven't heard about any issues regarding bugs.

Alien: Colonial Marines I believe it was called.

Pffft... and the guy posts on a gaming site every day...

I figured that was what you were probably referring to, but you did say "recently released", and Colonial Marines is more than 2 years old.

Thankfully, I've never played Colonial Marines. It was easy to see how awful that game was as soon as it hit the streets. I think I still hear DArtagnan complaining about it…

ACM was a horrible game, not a particularly bugged game. It was also anything but complex.

It's also an extreme example of deceitful marketing and exploitation of the fan-base. The market isn't exactly crawling with Alien games, so there was no choice if you wanted one - nor any warning that it would be what it ended up being. Which is why the backlash was immense.

Probably one of the worst examples to pick if you want to talk about the state of the industry from a reasonable position.

Bloodborne is a relatively simple game in terms of mechanics and RPG systems. It's a sophisticated engine, sure, but the amount of things that can go wrong when it comes to game states is tiny in comparison with something like PoE.

It's also tailor-made for a single platform that's identical for each user.

Another exceptionally poor example to use.

"Aliens: Colonial Marines has received mostly negative reviews.[55][56][57][58][59][60][72] Most complaints in the negative reviews of the game included bugs, bad A.I., unbalanced gameplay, and low quality graphics in the single-player game as well as a crude and poorly implemented multiplayer cooperative mode."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens:_Colonial_Marines

(there then follows Dartagnan critising the source rather than the point)

You say that both games are quite "simple" games. Well, if they are both equal they still make for a good comparison. I guess that's the trap you build for yourself when you're addicted to being contrary on every point someone makes, you can't have it both ways. You can't say they are not "reasonable" examples because they are "both simple" - comparing identicals makes the for the absolute best kind of comparison.

(there then follows Dartagnon explaining in 20 lines why he can say that but in a way that contradicts 43 other things he's stated in this thread)

Earlier in the thread you were quite adamant that Fluent simply doesn't understand the complexity of game creation, and then, for me, because you need to be contrary with me, suddenly "Oh, those games are so siiiiiiimple, they don't count"...

(there then follows Dartagnon interjecting his reply with countless "just because you're dumb" and "that's not what I wrote" and "It's just, like, an opinion, man" diversions)

Troika, Obsidian, both have/had reputations for making buggy games. Yes, you can argue like a politician on the back foot about why this was the case, blame the budget, blame the time-frame, blame the complexity, blame the dog, blame the whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that some games get released much less buggy than others. If 'complexity' is the 'problem' then it was stupid to have had such a complex goal in the first place, knowing full well that your previous games had major bugginess due to 'complexity'.

It's not like the guys making this game aren't 'experienced', right... Maybe they should have someone in the room that doesn't keep agreeing and falling for it every time someone says "wouldn't it be so cool if the game also had [insert random fluff element that some lunatic/child/whatever has been preaching about] which takes time and resources away from the core gameplay etc etc etc.

(there then follows Dartagnon saying various forms of yeah, but no, but yeah, but no but until you can't bare it any more)

I also 'love' how you say the people who wanted an Alien game had little choice in the matter, like it's a comparison to people who have been looking forward to an Infinity Engine cRPG. It's classic Dartagnan diversionary nonsense. Alien: CM is a First Person Shooter - if you think there is some kind of 'lack' in the market for First Person Shooters then I'm sorry, but BWHAHAHAHA etc etc etc general mockery usual. I mean, jezuz, JDR13 even needed clarification on which Alien game we were talking about...

Aliens vs Predator - 2010
Aliens Infestation - 2011

I mean, jezuz, do you even look at internet lists before you post automated contrariness? Oh look, guess what I found on the wiki page that lists 10 gazillion Alien games:

Cancelled titles:

Aliens: Crucible

Cancellation date163] 2009
Proposed system release: 2009—PC, X360, PS3
Notesublished by Sega, developed by Obsidian Entertainment.[163]
Obsidian weren’t meeting their goals and building levels took much longer than anticipated.

Try reading what I wrote and focus on my points rationally, instead of all this negative conjecture. It would help and inspire fruitful debate.

If you can demonstrate a less emotional and ranty position, I'll gladly reply and clarify the aspects of my points you don't understand.

Yawn...

I prefer sigh, personally

Do whatever you like mate. Oh, you already do. Well, in defence of the obvious threat to my account if I bother to exchange words with a nut-job, I guess I'll piss off now and hope that you get bored of this thread so that I can at least read something substantial from someone who's objective is slightly more 'complex' than "Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, hahaha I can post an opposite of anything you post even if it's complete crap" bollocks.

See ya.

I doubt your account is in danger based on a few insults headed in my direction. It's par for the course for most people without a calm approach and rational arguments

But have fun!