Divinity: Original Sin II - Interview with Michael Douse

One thing that always grabbed me was that companies like Bethesda and EA frequently spend as much on advertising as they do on development. I don't have any figures handy but on one recent EA release the marketing budget was released and it was shocking. The same thing is true with many big budget movies. A huge amount is spent on marketing. Historically Larian does not spend nearly as much on marketing (they might have spent more on D:OS-2 not sure) so when you consider the cost to make a game you have to include the marketing cost.

I'm strictly focusing on the cost of hiring people.

The reason I don't care about marketing budgets here, is that all these games have them - regardless of how many people are involved in actually creating the material. Advertising isn't necessarily about manpower - but about how much money you're spending.

Larian might not have a lot of PR people employed, but they do advertise their games and they do quite a lot of marketing as well. They had a ton of PR videos made for DOS2 - for instance.

When I consider the team size of other "modestly sized" developers, including Piranha Bytes, InXile and OtherSide - it's my strong impression that their development teams are significantly smaller than 100+ people.

Well, obviously my mistake has been to compare them with these developers, because I guess they're a lot bigger than I thought.

I wonder how Obsidian compares? Obsidian is involved in a ton of games at all times, it seems - so it's sort of a different situation.

Also consider the console revenue for D:OS. I don't know what sales were like but the 1.5 million that was quoted was just for PC; they also sold a few units on consoles.
According to VGchartz (whatever that is) there were more than 900K physical copies sold for consoles (more if you include digital copies).

I haven't forgotten console games.
 
How do you know it's not for one development team, though? Apart from the non-developers, obviously.

I mean, it could easily be for more than one - but the interview makes it sound like they're all working on the same thing, because they've worked to establish a "22/24-hour" cycle where each studio takes over from the next at a certain time.

That makes it sound like what CIG are doing with Star Citizen - only with 500 people.

Not that it's terribly important or interesting.

Just surprising to me. Whether they're 100 or 150 people working on a game, that's still at least twice as much as I would have guessed.

I wonder how many worked on DOS2…. Hmm, anyway - the future seems bright for Larian and that's great.

That number seems about right to me. Their games are AAA quality or at least very close to it. Other AAA games routinely have hundreds of people involved.

Still, that's only for D:OS 2. Like I said, they tripled in size when they started developing that game. They did D:OS 1 with only 40 people which I think is impressive. I think it's even more impressive that they developed DKS with that many or less.
 
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That number seems about right to me. Their games are AAA quality or at least very close to it. Other AAA games routinely have hundreds of people involved.

Still, that's only for D:OS 2. Like I said, they tripled in size when they started developing that game. They did D:OS 1 with only 40 people which I think is impressive. I think it's even more impressive that they developed DKS with that many or less.

It's that tripling in size that's making me curious.

I don't consider DOS1 or DKS AAA games - or even close to AAA games. They're more what I would consider middle-market games.

DOS2, however, was much closer to a true AAA game, though I still wouldn't have expected that many developers.

It makes sense, though - because I was quite surprised at just how much better the game looked, both in terms of the craft - but also the production values.

My curiousity is about how they concluded it was financially viable to have 120+ people working on the game. Again, I guess salaries are very different for them.
 
It's that tripling in size that's making me curious.

I don't consider DOS1 or DKS AAA games - or even close to AAA games. They're more what I would consider middle-market games.

DOS2, however, was much closer to a true AAA game, though I still wouldn't have expected that many developers.

It makes sense, though - because I was quite surprised at just how much better the game looked, both in terms of the craft - but also the production values.

My curiousity is about how they concluded it was financially viable to have 120+ people working on the game. Again, I guess salaries are very different for them.

You don't consider DKS close to being a AAA game? We'll just agree to disagree on that.

As far as D:OS 2 being financially viable, I can only assume their sales projections led them to believe it would be. I'd be curious to know what their profit was as well.
 
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As far as D:OS 2 being financially viable, I can only assume their sales projections led them to believe it would be. I'd be curious to know what their profit was as well.
Based on that not accurate Steam leak from last month you can get an estimate at least. The number of players was (Original Sin 2 - 1,688,895) that doesn't include GOG though.

Link - https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40189
 
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You don't consider DKS close to being a AAA game? We'll just agree to disagree on that.

No, I think it's more like Elex or Risen 3. Sort of got that typical slightly clunky Euro-feel to it. Especially when it comes to animations, combat and the character models.

Two Worlds 2 is another good example of the kind of "range" I'm talking about.

Not low-budget indie - and not polished AAA high production value stuff.

Still a nice game, though.

Yes, by all means - let's agree to disagree :)
 
I don't follow you here. You are sort of saying the cost of making the game is number of people hired but when we see the figures related to the cost of a game from a public company that figure includes the marketing budget. The marketing budget isn't just people they hire for pr it includes how much they pay for advertising. So if we see that a mass effect game cost 30 million to make part of that cost might include 10 or 15 million for advertising.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Andromeda
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Which they put at over 200 people and over $100 million.
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This page talks about advertising budget for bioshock at $5.5 million (dead space was 2.2 million):
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ame-revenue-three-times-more-than-high-scores
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Anyway I'm not sure what you are trying to figure out. We know that (for example) cdprojek did not pay nearly as much for developers (programmers/game designer) than EA from 10ks and other reports. We know that Russia cost is way lower than Belgium.
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If you are looking for a job you have to figure in cost of living. If you are curious what a company can sustain with regards to cash flow you can find some information from public companies (public companies typically have much higher overhead for (mostly worthless) execs. If you are looking to hire people ...
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The other problem is that salary is only part of the equation. There is also the cost of benefits and office space (overhead). If you are an indie developer hiring people remotely this overhead cost is a lot lower. If you live in certain states or countries the rules for this overhead differ. The salary figures don't include the overhead figure but the amount spent to develop the game does include the overhead.

I'm strictly focusing on the cost of hiring people.

The reason I don't care about marketing budgets here, is that all these games have them - regardless of how many people are involved in actually creating the material. Advertising isn't necessarily about manpower - but about how much money you're spending.
 
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I don't follow you here. You are sort of saying the cost of making the game is number of people hired but when we see the figures related to the cost of a game from a public company that figure includes the marketing budget. The marketing budget isn't just people they hire for pr it includes how much they pay for advertising. So if we see that a mass effect game cost 30 million to make part of that cost might include 10 or 15 million for advertising.
-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Effect:_Andromeda
--
Which they put at over 200 people and over $100 million.
-
This page talks about advertising budget for bioshock at $5.5 million (dead space was 2.2 million):
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...ame-revenue-three-times-more-than-high-scores
---
Anyway I'm not sure what you are trying to figure out. We know that (for example) cdprojek did not pay nearly as much for developers (programmers/game designer) than EA from 10ks and other reports. We know that Russia cost is way lower than Belgium.
-
If you are looking for a job you have to figure in cost of living. If you are curious what a company can sustain with regards to cash flow you can find some information from public companies (public companies typically have much higher overhead for (mostly worthless) execs. If you are looking to hire people …
-
The other problem is that salary is only part of the equation. There is also the cost of benefits and office space (overhead). If you are an indie developer hiring people remotely this overhead cost is a lot lower. If you live in certain states or countries the rules for this overhead differ. The salary figures don't include the overhead figure but the amount spent to develop the game does include the overhead.

No, you're not following me here at all :)

I said I don't care about marketing budgets, because ALL games have them. Meaning, I'm not forgetting about them - it's just something that's impossible to establish and since I'm comparing Larian to other teams I thought were of the same size, I would have to establish all their respective marketing budgets as well - which seems incredibly tedious to me.

But I don't think it's worth going in circles over indefinitely. It's really not that important to me - and I assume it's not to you, either.
 
It is not that important to me other than to note that not all companies have the same size marketing budget. I'm fairly sure that at least prior to D:OS-2 larian spent a fraction what EA spends on marketing for major game. As I noted it is shocking how much some big companies spend on marketing (both movies and games) and in some cases they will spend more on marketing than on the actual product....

No, you're not following me here at all :)

I said I don't care about marketing budgets, because ALL games have them. Meaning, I'm not forgetting about them - it's just something that's impossible to establish and since I'm comparing Larian to other teams I thought were of the same size, I would have to establish all their respective marketing budgets as well - which seems incredibly tedious to me.

But I don't think it's worth going in circles over indefinitely. It's really not that important to me - and I assume it's not to you, either.
 
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It is not that important to me other than to note that not all companies have the same size marketing budget. I'm fairly sure that at least prior to D:OS-2 larian spent a fraction what EA spends on marketing for major game. As I noted it is shocking how much some big companies spend on marketing (both movies and games) and in some cases they will spend more on marketing than on the actual product….

You keep assuming that I don't know something that's common knowledge - or that I don't think about simple things.

I don't really know how to deal with that - except to repeat myself:

I don't care about the marketing budget of these games that I'm comparing to each other - because I don't want to do all that research and see how they compare.

There's no "average" I can look up, like I might have done with the salaries. That's why I focused on those - and not on things I would never have a chance of knowing for the companies in question, like Piranha Bytes, InXile, OtherSide, Obsidian and so forth. I would have to check out their publishers as well (when appropriate) - and figure out how they're doing their marketing, in-house or not.

A ton of factors that would require a ridiculous amount of work to establish to guage how Larian compares.

But, yes, I actually do know that big companies spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising. I consider that common knowledge for anyone with even a basic concept of the industry and the entertainment industry in general.

But thank you for your insights all the same :)
 
The 150 people that are working for Larian in one way or the other do not necessarily equal FTEs, which I expect to be less than 150. Or in other words: Not everybody is working full-time for Larian. Also not everybody is employed by Larian, some are hired and as far as I understood, for periods of time.
That and the differences in payments in the different regions, results in too many variables that are unknown and make it impossible to get to a cost estimate of those 150 persons.

Somehow I am convinced though that Swen is smart enough to let his company not grow bigger than can be afforded :)
 
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There is also no average for salary. You keep making these conflicting broad statements that are false. First you said you don't care about marketing because you assume that all companies pay the same amount. This is patently false. Then you say that you only care about development cost because you assume all companies are paying the same amount. This is also false - even in the same region. There is no standard $$ for either. This is my last post and if you decide to comment on my comment and again say something that is conflicting within the same paragraph i promise not to respond.

Btw the average salary you look up is for major companies. Larian is not a major company and nor are the 100's of indie houses. You do get some data from, for example, department of labor but that is specific to usa and it makes a lot of assumptions which tend to break down with small companies where the standard deviation is quite high and % of labor that fall into contracts and part-time might be quite high. I'm not sure about europe or canada reporting and i'm fairly sure that places like russia the data is extremely unreliable.

You keep assuming that I don't know something that's common knowledge - or that I don't think about simple things.

I don't really know how to deal with that - except to repeat myself:

I don't care about the marketing budget of these games that I'm comparing to each other - because I don't want to do all that research and see how they compare.
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No, I think it's more like Elex or Risen 3. Sort of got that typical slightly clunky Euro-feel to it. Especially when it comes to animations, combat and the character models.

Two Worlds 2 is another good example of the kind of "range" I'm talking about.

Not low-budget indie - and not polished AAA high production value stuff.

Still a nice game, though.

Yes, by all means - let's agree to disagree :)

Well I'm glad you made sure to get that exra word in before agreeing to disagree. :)
 
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There is also no average for salary. You keep making these conflicting broad statements that are false. First you said you don't care about marketing because you assume that all companies pay the same amount. This is patently false. Then you say that you only care about development cost because you assume all companies are paying the same amount. This is also false - even in the same region. There is no standard $$ for either. This is my last post and if you decide to comment on my comment and again say something that is conflicting within the same paragraph i promise not to respond.

You have quite the imagination. I never said anything about marketing budgets being the same across companies - that's something exclusively in your own head.

I said all games HAVE marketing budgets - so there's no reason to single that aspect out as unique and particularly worthy of note, as I could never establish how much money Larian and the other companies spend.

I CAN make an educated guess as to team sizes and paychecks - but that would require knowing the average salary for each country - which I don't, which is why I asked you.

I've also said absolutely nothing about all companies paying the same amount - that's also exclusively in your head.

I can only suggest you stop imagining what people say, and - instead - read what they say.

I specifically said, several times, that I was curious about the salary DIFFERENCE - so how on Earth could I have believed they were the same for all companies? That makes zero sense.

I also specifically pointed out that salaries were different in Maryland than what you claim they would be in California - which is another clear-cut sign that I obviously know they're not the same.

I don't know if you actually read anything I write here, so maybe it's just a wasted effort overall.

Btw the average salary you look up is for major companies. Larian is not a major company and nor are the 100's of indie houses. You do get some data from, for example, department of labor but that is specific to usa and it makes a lot of assumptions which tend to break down with small companies where the standard deviation is quite high and % of labor that fall into contracts and part-time might be quite high. I'm not sure about europe or canada reporting and i'm fairly sure that places like russia the data is extremely unreliable.

What nonsense is this? The average salary is the average salary - meaning it's neither for major or minor companies. It's called AVERAGE for a reason - which is just a baseline from which one might make some educated assumption.

There's no way to know exactly what developers are paid in a given company - unless you happen to work there or have some inside information.

That's, you know, why we need to check out the average salary.

There's no such thing as an average marketing budget - because there's no law in place to protect people here (as no one needs protection in this case), which is the difference between marketing budgets and paychecks. Companies could be spending 99% of the combined budget or 1% of the combined budget - there's just no way to know for sure.

Anyway, you sound like you don't have the first clue what you're talking about - which I already established at first, when you made claims about the salary difference, that you failed to back up.

So, seriously - I'm done going in circles with you.
 
Well I'm glad you made sure to get that exra word in before agreeing to disagree. :)

Yeah, forgive me for trying to explain my position so you might have a better idea what I mean.

We're not all obsessed with our egos, you know.
 
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