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November 11th, 2019, 11:38
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
As others have pointed out, it's largely down to the first game, not the second. Sadly, that means the franchise is probably not possible to salvage at this point.

Then again, I'm not sure Microsoft is interested in the Pillars of Eternity franchise. In fact, I don't think they bought Obsidian for their existing IPs at all, as they're all too small for Microsoft to care all that much. I expect to see RPGs with an appeal similar to KotOR or Fallout, not Pillars of Eternity or Tyranny. Maybe we'll see another such game from Obsidian if they already have one in the works, but after that it's doubtful.
I think you're overestimating how much influence Microsoft wants to have over its developers.

They're supposed to be one of the more loose and hands-off publishers - and while it's obviously a business thing, they wouldn't stand to gain much if they denied Obsidian everything that didn't suit big businees.

So, I ultimately think it's more about what Obsidian wants to do.

Now, I'm not one of those CRPG fans to glorify them. In fact, I've always found them to be somewhat mercenary in their approach to game development - and it seems to me they're more than fine doing all kinds of stuff that doesn't adhere to what you would expect.

I'm sure the success of Outer Worlds means they'll focus on that for now, and my first guess would be their next game will be an expanded sequel - probably less than two years from now.

Between now and then, I'm sure we'll see som DLC and what not.

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November 11th, 2019, 12:08
I'm kinda confused on Sawyer's statement.

What's there to learn from Eternity? Both are good games, not the best for one simple reason.
His idiotic so called balancing. And rebalancing a singleplayer game till doomsday. While cutting out humor (he should have learned that from FO:NV wild world trait being separate from the default game).

As someone already said, polished release is a huge deal. Bigger than "balance".
That's something he refuses to learn since the moment Obsidian worked on some irrelevant mmo. After that he got obsessed and focused on balancing instead of making fun things. No I don't remember what was the mmo's name, ask dart.
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November 11th, 2019, 12:15
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I'm talking about your claims that the companions aren't as good as those in BG2, or that the writing isn't as good as in PS:T. Those are subjective things in which you have no basis for comparison since you haven't actually played the game.
So you believe the game has better companions than BG2 and that the writing is as good or better than PST's?
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November 11th, 2019, 12:35
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
So you believe the game has better companions than BG2 and that the writing is as good or better than PST's?
His point is that it's irrelevant what he thinks. He's saying it's subjective.

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November 11th, 2019, 14:06
Originally Posted by BriefDArt View Post
His point is that it's irrelevant what he thinks. He's saying it's subjective.
It's also subjective whether a Charles Dickens novel is better or worse than a Game of Thrones fan fiction, however, that doesn't preclude people from being able to form an opinion of quality and express it. This should be obvious, it's not rocket science.
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November 11th, 2019, 14:12
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
It's also subjective whether a Charles Dickens novel is better or worse than a Game of Thrones fan fiction, however, that doesn't preclude people from being able to form an opinion of quality and express it. This should be obvious, it's not rocket science.
Indeed it should be obvious Well, in an ideal world it would be.

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November 11th, 2019, 14:27
Personally didnt consider either PoE game as being too much verbose. In my personal cRPG verbosity meter, this was on average level :-).

But I didnt like the writing, especially in first one. It somehow didnt seem natural, didnt fit the characters or situation in many cases. I understand this is subjective (unlike my verbosity meter - thats new standard:-).

Might also be, that for native speaker this feels differently, but thats how I felt about it.
Second one improved upon this I think, but not enough for me to bear full voice-overs. Really dont like full voice-over in games full of text. Desynchronization of read and heard strongly impacts my imaginative immersion in negative way.
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November 11th, 2019, 14:34
Personally, I found PoE writing to be somewhat pretentious and a little dull. I especially disliked the fire priest and cypher characters - because they were so obviously done by Avellone - in his screaming-to-stand-out style.

At least, I'm almost certain he wrote lines for those characters.

The actual story, however, was pretty good. At least it was servicable - and above average for this kind of game.

Superior to, say, the first Baldur's Gate.

But overly wordy? Not so much. I thought it was appropriate for the most part.

It was just not really my style.

Also, I definitely prefer having voiced dialogue - which is one reason I liked PoE 2 much more.

It was also lighter in tone - and just felt like a more active and dynamic game.

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November 11th, 2019, 14:48
PoE story completely lost me when I realized the main antagonist is more or less omnipotent, but he really intervenes only for the sake of story plot twisting or adjusting.

Spoiler


After that I almost stopped to play for good.
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November 11th, 2019, 14:59
My general point is that after all these years of it's release I still don't ever really hear anyone make reference to the game in the context of the games it was supposed to emulate. It's all very well talking about it as its own game, in exclusion from it's supposed heritage but, particularly in a thread discussing it's failures, that's kinda missing the whole point of the enterprise.

If it's to be treated as just some disconnected random RPG that I'm not sure about then I'll veer on the side of caution and wait for a deep sale before trying the first one. Which is biazzre, because I was one of those guys who insta-bought Serpents in the Staglands full price, because isometric party-based RtWP is, or at least was, my auto-buy bag, and that was a technically bad game in a lot of regards, but it completely nailed the whole IE concept. But with Pillars I'm holding back.

And I do this because no-one seems able to relate anything in the game to the IE heritage. By only making reference to other IE games, which parts of the game can be easily communicated as being 'similar to that IE game'?

The story structure? Linear and ever deeper like IWD or open world hubs like BG or open world mostly single city like PST? Is it mercenary like IWD or chosen one like BG or introspective and personal like PST? Etc.

The party make-up? All self-created like IWD, meeting huge numbers of randoms as you travel and then storing them all at the pub like BG or small list of very defined characters you gradually meet here and there while exploring like PST?

The mechanics of play? Is the spellcasting Vancian, is it round-based, do you learn spells and unlock chests, do you disarm red traps, are criticals automatic hits and do they double the hit, is it dice based in that you're rolling for everything, how does it do saving throws, etc etc etc. Is any of this kind of stuff even remotely the same?

The loot? Do people generally drop what they're wearing or at least adhere to a rational loot table, is there plenty of unique items that always appear in the same place, do the unique items seem interesting and unique, how are things like armour class and + weapons comparable via interesting loot. Will you ever be lugging around dead cats because it's there to be lugged around, etc, etc.

Levelling? Which game does it feel most like in this regard, what kind of things happen at level-up, is it more AD&D or more 3rd Ed in feeling, does everyone level up at different speeds, does everyone do completely different things at level up, etc.

Character variety? One of the most intimidating things for new players to the IE games is the sheer variety of character builds, so does it give that same sense of depth in this regard to, for example, the difference between an evil Dwarven Defender and a good Halfling Bard and all in between. Or is it more like PST and it's not really about character variety at all?

And on and on the list would go.

And I wouldn't expect you or anyone to answer these questions, especially not in one post, but what I'm saying is that, for me, after five years of this game being around, I still have virtually zero idea of what to expect from the game and I've read countless threads and reviews and seen all kinds of debates. But no-one ever draws reference to the IE games, except in the negative.

Like you said earlier, you found a comparison to make with Dragon Age. The comparison that comes to my mind is NWN2 when I hear about it, especially as it's the same company making it. I didn't really enjoy NWN2, hence the added trepidation. What I need to hear about is comparisons to the IE games, which I did enjoy a lot more.

And if someone says some one-liner like "Oh right, the story is like BG's and the combat is like IWD", then that's pretty meaningless without lots of paragraphs of reasoning and elaboration, as I'd have no idea whether that person is the kind of person who thinks Diablo is a bit like Disco Elysium because they're both isometric RPGs.

You know what I mean? Does it actually feel like/play like an IE game in any real sense?
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November 11th, 2019, 15:03
Wouldn't it be a little easier to just try it? I'm sure it's nearly free at this point.

You seem to understand that these things are subjective, and people want different things from a "true" IE game.

For PoE 1:

Personally, I think it was quite close to an IE game, but I didn't care for the combat system - and found the character system somewhat bland.

That said, 2nd Edition AD&D is also rather bland compared to later editions, so there's that.

Overall, it was more or less as advertised - and I think it's much closer to BG/BG2 than pretty much any other game out there.

But it's not identical - and people bitching about it are likely to have forgotten how time affects games and designs.

Back in 1998 - it took a lot less to impress us than it takes today. Well, for many of us.

For PoE 2 - it improved things just like I said.

But I didn't say it because I wanted to convince you - or because I expected you to agree with any of it.

I was explaining to JDR how it differed from the first game, according to my subjective point of view.

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November 11th, 2019, 15:14
Originally Posted by BriefDArt View Post
Wouldn't it be a little easier to just try it? I'm sure it's nearly free at this point.
Lol, no. Still over 20 bucks for the complete edition, even in the sales. I'm guessing 'virtually free' means different things to different people. You could say that's a 'subjective' claim…

Originally Posted by BriefDArt View Post
You seem to understand that these things are subjective, and people want different things from a "true" IE game.
I don't care what people want, I have no case to prove or disprove, I'm just saying what my impression is from what I've heard and more importantly not heard about.

Originally Posted by BriefDArt View Post
For PoE 1:

Personally, I think it was quite close to an IE game, but I didn't care for the combat system - and found the character system somewhat bland. That said, 2nd Edition AD&D is also rather bland compared to later editions, so there's that.

Overall, it was more or less as advertised - and I think it's much closer to BG/BG2 than pretty much any other game out there. But it's not identical - and people bitching about it are likely to have forgotten how time affects games and designs.
Yup, see, all these blanket statements are utterly meaningless without elaboration. Zero picture has been painted in my head, I have no idea why you think it's closer to BG than any other game out there I've merely heard you state it. And as for time changing things, well, the point of the game was to turn back the clock, whether you liked that idea or not
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November 11th, 2019, 15:18
What a surprise

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November 11th, 2019, 15:32
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
You know what I mean? Does it actually feel like/play like an IE game in any real sense?
Im honestly not able to distinguish if those are genuine questions or you are just trying to point out that PoE is so bad game or people talking about it are so stupid.

But something tells me, if you really wanted answers to those questions, you would already have them.
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November 11th, 2019, 15:40
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
Im honestly not able to distinguish if those are genuine questions or you are just trying to point out that PoE is so bad game or people talking about it are so stupid.

But something tells me, if you really wanted answers to those questions, you would already have them.
This is no troll & this is the response I always get…

I have no interest in saying if it's a good or bad game. I have no interest in belittling people who talk about the game.

My first reaction to you're post is to ask why you're first reaction to my post is to 'get all defensive while avoiding the question'. And not being mean, this is just always how it goes.

There's PoE as an individual game made by Obsidian - so it's probably going to be a bit like NWN2, right?

There's the PoE that was supposed to be a game that emulates the IE games - so it's going to be a bit like IWD, BG, PST, right?

Which is it? Is it a game I'm supposed to take on it's own merits as a unique and individual product that I should carry no expectations with beyond whether I like Obsidian games or not? Or is it a game that ignores the Obsidian heritage and delivers a game that mostly delivers a glorious homage to the IE games?
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November 11th, 2019, 16:37
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
This is no troll & this is the response I always getů
Ok, its just that sometimes your argumentation feels quite … demanding? … aggressive? Dunno, perhaps Im just too sensitive, but you also say its usual reaction to you, so maye its not just me.

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Which is it? Is it a game I'm supposed to take on it's own merits as a unique and individual product that I should carry no expectations with beyond whether I like Obsidian games or not? Or is it a game that ignores the Obsidian heritage and delivers a game that mostly delivers a glorious homage to the IE games?
I was really amazed by first impression the game made on me when I started to play. I loved visuals, I loved art, I loved when game first time suddnely opened book page with situation description on me and my party had to go through skill-checks. It all felt as great new IE game to me.

Unfortunately, from the great beginning the game went down-hill for me.

From beginning I didnt much like the basic stats. For example, having artificial Might to serve as basis for calculation of both physical and spell power. Why? Dunno.
Most of the abilities gained through leveling are useless. Many spells were similar, just different damage. 8 damage types: 3 physical types, 4 elemental types and the raw type. Mostly pointless as you are in most cases able to damage anyone with most damage types, its just not as effective. The system is artificial and bulky for RtWP. So combat is messy and I never really enjoyed it. Later in game I was able to tolerate it.

Game gives you option to create companions as well as to recruit pre-made companions with background and story. All are stored in inns. As much as I try I cannot recall details of story of any of them. Stories of many BG1 and BG2 companions I remember till today.

In BG2 you could get your own headquarters for some of the classes. It didnt have real use to you, but at least it didnt pretend anything and stories and quests hidden behind it were some of the best in game (loved planar sphere). Here you get your own hold and you can 1/delve in deep dungeon beneath with its own story and 2/ develop the hold by investing in building reconstruction. 1/ was bit too long but at least had the only real boss fight of vanilla game. 2/ was artificial and utterly boring money sink.

Game opens in larger chunks in similar way like BG1 or BG2. But non linearity is mostly pretended and artificial. Game uses some form of level scaling … dont remember details anymore. Just that it wasnt one of main problems I had with it.

Writing and story of PoE1 also disappointed me. You are chosen one, dealing with omnipotent adversaries, dealing with gods themself. Dealing with secrets that shake foundation of the world itself. Meh … give me a break. This is chosen one on steroids if you ask me.

Its necessary to mention that White March expansion was good compared to vanilla game and probably main reason why I managed to finished it. It has its own story and some nice encounters.

This all sounds quite negative, but lets say it, at time of release this was the best thing that appeared in department of party based, isometric cRPGs, for quite long time.

Considering what I know today, I would skip first game, read the plot on Wiki and start second game in TB mode. Of course, shitty main stats remain, but everything else is much improved. But I guess I ran off my word limit for one thread, so Im not going into detail with second game.

By the way, above is just my own impression of the game, Im sure others saw it with different eyes…
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November 11th, 2019, 19:51
I picked up POE1 when it came out. I didn't finish it for two reasons. One, perhaps the biggest, was that I lost my save when I got a new PC (my own fault). I was in the first big city you get to at that point. The second is that I started over on the new PC but was burnt out on all the fighting.

When POE2 got announced I decided to try POE1 again since I love being able to import decisions and characters to a sequel. This time I played on easy so as not to waste so much time with fighting trash mobs.

This time I really enjoyed it - especially as I got to know more of the lore, story and characters. I also skipped all the supporter text. I finished it along with all the DLC and enjoyed it so much I played it through again. Once as a druid and once as a ranger. At some point I want to do a third as one of special races (Moon).

POE2 I also really enjoyed (pre TB combat which I used to love growing up but now don't have the time/patience for).

I didn't feel my character was all that special. He just got involved at a certain place and time and became a Watcher. This put him in the spotlight but it made sense and I enjoyed it.

To me the gods were well done. I don't want to spoil things but for those who played you know the secret. This to me meant the gods weren't omnipotent and was a great twist.

I found the story of both fresh and exciting but then any game or story can be made to sound cliche if someone wants to.

Just my own personal opinion of course.

I tend to agree with the point others made that the problem with POE2 was due to the first game not being a blockbuster. I had initially given it a low rating (EDIT: POE1 I mean; POE2 I gave an 8) and was lucky I gave it another chance and then realized it had a lot of charm and I really liked it (still too much combat for my tastes but I am rather peculiar when it comes to combat).
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November 11th, 2019, 20:13
After Obsidian bugging out my level 18 character with one of their numerous patches, I stopped playing PoE 2 and have absolutely no desire to return. Despite its more streamlined combat (compared to the original), the game is chock full of forgettable encounters and clunky, tacked-on ship combat.

And that's AFTER they originally soured my taste for the franchise altogether by outright ruining my characters during the original game's launch with immensely bugged reflex/wisdom/con saves.

So, lesson to learn, don't be incompetent and plan out your QA better, as was done with Outer Worlds.
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November 11th, 2019, 20:43
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I've never seen that complaint about PoE, and it didn't seem particularly verbose to me.



It might seem wordy if you're comparing it to something like IWD, but it's not another PS:T.
The first time I played it I read the backer npc stories. That was an awful lot of text and pretty meaningless as well. However, the second time I avoided that and enjoyed the game a lot more. Maybe the backer npcs is why some reviewers find it verbose?
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November 11th, 2019, 20:49
Originally Posted by SveNitoR View Post
The first time I played it I read the backer npc stories. That was an awful lot of text and pretty meaningless as well. However, the second time I avoided that and enjoyed the game a lot more. Maybe the backer npcs is why some reviewers find it verbose?
That's a good point. I actually didn't know they were backer stories at first.

Not that I ever felt obligated to read them. That's the kind of thing I skip almost immediately, unless I'm particularly engaged by the setting or narrative.

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