RPGWatch @ Gamescom - Realms Beyond Preview

HiddenX said:

I will never understand why so many gamers are so impressed by D&D 3.5 rules.

Every RPG developer should make rules that work best for his game.

If every game would use the same ruleset gaming would get boring and each new game were just a mod.

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I think one thing that's important is that 3.5 was open licence. Any other D&D rules system would have to be licenced. It was also the first D&D system to really incorporate non-combat skills well. Also it has a level of complexity and customization that later editions do not. Lastly there is a large degree of familiarity with the rule set among crpg fans.

HiddenX said:

I will never understand why so many gamers are so impressed by D&D 3.5 rules.

Every RPG developer should make rules that work best for his game.

If every game would use the same ruleset gaming would get boring and each new game were just a mod.

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I like D&D 3.5 rules quite a lot and wish we had some more CRPGs that were based on it… But I certainly don't think developers should treat PnP rules like religious fundamentalists treat their holy books.

Also since this isn't an official D&D game the OGL prohibits certain things (e.g., nothing related to Forgotten Realms, D&D gods or locations) so obviously certain prestige classes, monsters, and spells aren't allowed. Will be so much more interesting if Ceres makes unique classes / spells / monsters that fit with the lore of their world rather than just making a generic D&D clone.

HobGoblin42 said:

Regarding the latest "controversy" about the Armor Class: D&D3.5e only applies AC for the torso armor and the shield. With our approach, we take the AC of the Full plate (+8) for example and distribute it on the different armor parts:

Why? Because someone wearing a full helmet, gauntlets and solid boots should get more protection. Our game is using the OGL and is not an official licensed D&D product, so, we're free to change details.

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Yeah I like the sound of that change. Makes sense, but I'm curious how a half point of armor class will work. (as that image shows boots / greaves and gauntlets at 1.5AC.) Will it "round up" for the purpose of attack rolls?

daveyd said:

Yeah I like the sound of that change. Makes sense, but I'm curious how a half point of armor class will work. (as that image shows boots / greaves and gauntlets at 1.5AC.) Will it "round up" for the purpose of attack rolls?

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Internally, the dice rolls with double precision, means it's basically a D40 with all input values doubled. Therefore even 0.5 AC can make a difference. But you won't ever really notice that in combat logs etc.

I don't play party-based games much anymore as I never finish them. If combat can't be resolved in less than 30 seconds/battle, I'll pass. For me, exploration and loot must be at least as much of the focus of the game as combat. Skyrim works and most arpgs work. I love survival games because it is more about non-combat stuff. Combat is just one piece of many in those games; not a full half or more of your play time.

All of that said, this looks like a wonderful implementation of the gold box games of yore. If I do decide to pick up another party-based game this will be at or near the very top of the pile.

HobGoblin42 said:

In regard of those two components, everything is still under consideration. Right now, we primarily want to complete the base classes with all their spells/feats/actions and those are implemented in accordance to the SRD 3.5e (with some adaptions since we're using a hexagonal grid).

Regarding the latest "controversy" about the Armor Class: D&D3.5e only applies AC for the torso armor and the shield. With our approach, we take the AC of the Full plate (+8) for example and distribute it on the different armor parts:

Why? Because someone wearing a full helmet, gauntlets and solid boots should get more protection. Our game is using the OGL and is not an official licensed D&D product, so, we're free to change details.

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So you decided to make Fighter's life even more miserable in 3.5e when compared to casters than it already is?
So how do you plan to change Casters compared to PnP? Don't say you are adding components for spells because those already exist and don't do much to balance anything.

Archangel said:

So you decided to make Fighter's life even more miserable in 3.5e when compared to casters than it already is?
So how do you plan to change Casters compared to PnP? Don't say you are adding components for spells because those already exist and don't do much to balance anything.

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Isn't the rest restriction going to be the limiting factor of spellcasters? There's talk of a potentially elaborate camping system. From the sound of things it's definitely not going to be like NWN (where you can rest basically anywhere not in the vicinity of a hostile enemy). As you can't essentially have unlimited spells, casters will be the sprinters and fighters will be the distance runners.

Fighters are superior to casters at levels 1-4, and at about level 7 casters become vastly more powerful. So I think a lot depends on the level of the adventures.

Is the camera angle adjustable ?

daveyd said:

Isn't the rest restriction going to be the limiting factor of spellcasters? There's talk of a potentially elaborate camping system. From the sound of things it's definitely not going to be like NWN (where you can rest basically anywhere not in the vicinity of a hostile enemy). As you can't essentially have unlimited spells, casters will be the sprinters and fighters will be the distance runners.

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Rest restriction also exists in PnP and can be more easily enforced (by DM forcing encounters on the party when he feels they are resting too much because of party wizard stongarming the party into it) and they don't do much.
In computer games it is even easier to abuse it.
Normally I don't bring it up for party games because in the end you are not a single character but a whole party and as long they are all contributing in the combat it is OK but since they are making changes that will make Fighters harder to equip while doing nothing to casters I was wondering if there are other plans for Casters to have to do more to be useful for the party or if this is another of those games where only non casters have to use logic while everyone else does wonders.

Very nostalgic feel. Is the levelling similar to BG I/II? Tbh, I'm not a big fan of it.

Archangel said:

Rest restriction also exists in PnP and can be more easily enforced (by DM forcing encounters on the party when he feels they are resting too much because of party wizard stongarming the party into it) and they don't do much.
In computer games it is even easier to abuse it.
Normally I don't bring it up for party games because in the end you are not a single character but a whole party and as long they are all contributing in the combat it is OK but since they are making changes that will make Fighters harder to equip while doing nothing to casters I was wondering if there are other plans for Casters to have to do more to be useful for the party or if this is another of those games where only non casters have to use logic while everyone else does wonders.

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I don't think I agree with your conclusion that this will make fighters "harder to equip"… As long as armor pieces are priced appropriately (and / or distributed across loot with enough frequency / variety), then this doesn't make it any harder for fighters to achieve a good armor class score. As it stands in NWN or ToEE, Helmets without magical properties are basically worthless (e.g., small concentration bonus); actually they're more useful for casters than fighters.

Anyway, I'm not seeing how this will be a hindrance to fighters… If anything, in the early game it will help them because while you won't have the gold to buy a full suit of platemail, you may be able to afford plate gauntlets, helm, etc. And once you start acquiring magical armor they'll have the same base AC + any magical bonuses. So where's the downside?

BoboTheMighty said:

Very nostalgic feel. Is the levelling similar to BG I/II? Tbh, I'm not a big fan of it.

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I assume the leveling would be more similar to ToEE or NWN since those are based on 3.5e whereas BG was 2nd (or 2.5e?) I'm not entirely sure what you mean by leveling though.

Downside is that they might fuck us over by not letting us get good magical plate armor for all body parts while wizards will easily get their reverse gravity. Then the fighter finally gets plate armor +5 for all 4 body parts and runs into that reverse gravity and helplessly dies to anything.

Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for familiarity in an RPG, in terms of the world and the ruleset, not the content. I know where I am with a +3 magic sword in D&D, and what the properties of good loot will do for me. TBH, I often find myself indifferent to the world and systems of one-off RPGs, whereas in D&D I'm always keen to explore.

I think a familiar world is also an advantage, but obviously we can't have Forgotten Realms under the OGL. I think they're on the right track, though, in investing a lot of time in their world and the background.

The Good:

- The world concept sounds interesting. I was expecting some derivative Forgotten Realms knockoff. Hopefully the main quest of collecting information is open-ended.

- I like that every item can be interacted with like in Ultima VII

- I like the NPC schedules and day/night cycles. This is good for immersion.

- I like that there are hidden locations on the map. Reminds me of Storm of Zehir.

- The allignment system based on individual attributes sounds cool. D&D allignment system is godawful, so I'm glad they're not using that.

- I love complex faction systems. It's something I want in every RPG.

- Modding tools sounds great

The Bad:

- Splitting the game in parts is a major turn-off. The developers are asking us to buy an unfinished product without a definitive ending, and trusting that sales of the first part will allow them to create more. Anyone that gives them money for that is an idiot.

- The armor system is incompetent. What the hell are the developers thinking?

- Random encounters on the overworld map sound annoying. Like Storm of Zehir.

- That dialog screenshot displays something I hate in RPGs - "Hey, you look like an adventurer, can you help me?" This makes NPCs seem like quest dispensers rather than actual people. The player character should always be the one

- It's D&D combat. The worlds most overrated and overused RPG system.

Impression: This preview makes me a lot more interested, but I'm not going to be the fool duped into buying 1/4th of a game. Hobgoblin's explanation is completely stupid.

I hope you can pull off the whole world-design thing, Hobgoblin. Sounds interesting. I don't Kickstart much anymore, but you've definitely got my money.

HobGoblin42 said:

In regard of those two components, everything is still under consideration. Right now, we primarily want to complete the base classes with all their spells/feats/actions and those are implemented in accordance to the SRD 3.5e (with some adaptions since we're using a hexagonal grid).

Regarding the latest "controversy" about the Armor Class: D&D3.5e only applies AC for the torso armor and the shield. With our approach, we take the AC of the Full plate (+8) for example and distribute it on the different armor parts:

Why? Because someone wearing a full helmet, gauntlets and solid boots should get more protection. Our game is using the OGL and is not an official licensed D&D product, so, we're free to change details.

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Just a quick comment on the picture shown. I am finding it hard to make out at a glance the helmet which is brown on brown. Perhaps make the slots a neutral colour to improve readibility.

you said:

Is the camera angle adjustable ?

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No, it uses a fixed camera angle for purposes of engine-optimization.

Guido Henkel said:

No, it uses a fixed camera angle for purposes of engine-optimization.

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Is the engine a custom one?

Same engine as Spellforce apparently