Fallout 3 - Editorial @ Destructoid - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Fallout 3 - Editorial @ Destructoid

Default Fallout 3 - Editorial @ Destructoid

February 26th, 2010, 06:01
In an editorial entitled 'Videogame fans need to shup about everything', Jim Sterling from Destructoid looks both at how Diablo fans want to maintain Diablo's tone as darker - as well as some of the upheaveal that was going on between Bethesda and the fans of Fallout. Here's one of his rather spicy comments:
So, these people were complaining about a new game for their favorite franchise that was pretty good by all accounts and made a lot of money, ensuring future Fallout games for quite some time. Yet, had these guys had their way, I doubt we'd even be talking about Fallout DLC, or New Vegas, or anything Fallout-related right now. Had these guys had their way, we'd have a game that looked, sounded, and played like something from 1997, and it would have sold to a small group who would then have likely complained that it hadn't changed enough.
More information.
aries100 is offline

aries100

SasqWatch
RPGWatch Team

#1

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Denmark, Europe
Posts: 2,220
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 06:02
Haha good read

I didn't think Game journalists still visit the Codex
--
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The Second Coming- William Butler Yeats
redman5427 is offline

redman5427

redman5427's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#2

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA-Michigan
Posts: 1,384
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 18:36
Dumbest things iwe read in a very long time. What a moron.
The Watchman is offline

The Watchman

Watcher

#3

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 19:03
Very good points, best i've read in a while. Will surely piss off everyone at NMA which ofcourse, is a good thing.
bemushroomed is offline

bemushroomed

bemushroomed's Avatar
outlander

#4

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 19:20
Originally Posted by bemushroomed View Post
Very good points, best i've read in a while. Will surely piss off everyone at NMA.
It would if we post trolling attempts. We don't, though. Unlike this site, we're pretty strict on preventing cross-site trolling.

Anyway, I've seen this editorial countless times. Lazy false representation of opinions, ignoring facts that don't corroborate his theory, and - most amusing - getting angry at people in a one-sided, obsessive manner because you think those people are getting angry in a one-sided, obsessive manner. Yawn? I'm sorry, but it's more amusing than upsetting.

But "very good points"? Really? Ok, explain to me how his points are good and not lazy strawmen set up so he can easily take them down. Are his points "very good", or are you calling them "very good" because you agree with them. If the latter, how is your behaviour better than the "fans" this article targets? How is the author's?
Brother None is offline

Brother None

Brother None's Avatar
SasqWatch

#5

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 19:42
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
But "very good points"? Really? Ok, explain to me how his points are good and not lazy strawmen set up so he can easily take them down. Are his points "very good", or are you calling them "very good" because you agree with them. If the latter, how is your behaviour better than the "fans" this article targets? How is the author's?
Exactly my thoughts … his argument falls to the facts that (a) we got a new game and should be happy, (b) the game was pretty good and so we should be happy and (c) the game made a lot of money and is therefore very good.

It is exactly the sort of argument a teenager makes when someone questions a musical performer or actor on the basis of talent and they say 'well, they have a lop more money than you' … as if that matters.

So because the game was decent fun, was called Fallout which is the title of a game many folks wanted to see a sequel to, and made a crap-load of money, then we are not allowed to make critical remark? Perhaps HE needs to STFUAJPG.
--
-- Mike
txa1265 is offline

txa1265

txa1265's Avatar
SasqWatch
Moderator

#6

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Corning, NY USA
Posts: 14,764
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 20:50
That Final Fantasy IX article was stunning.
--
Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind. - John F Kennedy
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
The world is my country. To do good is my religion. My mind is my own church. This simple creed is all we need to enjoy peace on earth. - Thomas Paine
JemyM is offline

JemyM

JemyM's Avatar
Okay, now roll sanity.

#7

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,028
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Send a message via ICQ to JemyM Send a message via MSN to JemyM

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 20:59
--
Bah! No Linux client and it doesn't work on Wine. Pfft. Losers.
Melcar is offline

Melcar

Melcar's Avatar
Astrocreep

#8

Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 21:18
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Unlike this site, we're pretty strict on preventing cross-site trolling.

Feel free to give us some tips, since you seem to have it all figured out…
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#9

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 29,953
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 21:23
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Feel free to give us some tips, since you seem to have it all figured out…
*shrugs* I love the RPGWatch community. My belief is it allowing people to openly troll sites like NMA or the Codex never adds anything to any debate, often leads to nasty debates, and because certain users do so at an obsessive pace, derail a significant number of newsthreads. How the Watch moderates is their business, I'm simply expressing concern as a user.

A simple question if this is open to community debate: what does allowing cross-site trolling add to a community? How many threads here have been improved by people flaming or trolling the Codex or NMA?

EDIT: I really don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to tell anyone what to do, by the way. Like I said, I think the Watch has a good community, certainly one healthier than the Codex or NMA's in many ways, but still spots for improvement.
Last edited by Brother None; February 26th, 2010 at 21:46.
Brother None is offline

Brother None

Brother None's Avatar
SasqWatch

#10

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 21:54
Brother None, i thought it had many good points in regards to how a fanboy's mind works.. The article is maybe more amusing than "intelligent", but he's absolutely right.. Getting upset about games is one thing, getting upset about people in their 30's acting like whiny little kids is another thing, and imo, at least a BIT more understandable
bemushroomed is offline

bemushroomed

bemushroomed's Avatar
outlander

#11

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 21:56
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
A simple question if this is open to community debate: what does allowing cross-site trolling add to a community? How many threads here have been improved by people flaming or trolling the Codex or NMA?

I'm just curious as to what your definition of "allowing" is. I don't think the moderators having some tolerance, and not instantly banning people, is the same thing.

I'm just as annoyed as anyone else by the sudden influx of idiots we've had recently, but I don't see any reason for more action than what's already been taken… yet.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#12

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 29,953
Mentioned: 103 Post(s)

Default 

February 26th, 2010, 22:07
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I'm just curious as to what your definition of "allowing" is. I don't think the moderators having some tolerance, and not instantly banning people, is the same thing.
Banning is pretty extreme. To go back to NMA, we just remove any posts directly trolling another community, linking to threads on other sites saying "how stupid", or direct personal threats/extreme attacks on developers or journalists. I think your remark on the moderating having to be a response to how the community works is spot on: you moderate something that is a problem. The fact that we have to moderate for threats to developers is very telling of NMA as a community, and it sucks. Equally, I'd argue the Watch long since reached the point where moderating for cross-community trolling is a good idea.

Originally Posted by bemushroomed View Post
Getting upset about games is one thing, getting upset about people in their 30's acting like whiny little kids is another thing, and imo, at least a BIT more understandable
Really? I'd say insulting an inanimate object is preferable to insulting a human being. Maybe that's just me.
Brother None is offline

Brother None

Brother None's Avatar
SasqWatch

#13

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 04:01
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
*shrugs* I love the RPGWatch community. My belief is it allowing people to openly troll sites like NMA or the Codex never adds anything to any debate, often leads to nasty debates, and because certain users do so at an obsessive pace, derail a significant number of newsthreads. How the Watch moderates is their business, I'm simply expressing concern as a user.

A simple question if this is open to community debate: what does allowing cross-site trolling add to a community? How many threads here have been improved by people flaming or trolling the Codex or NMA?

EDIT: I really don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to tell anyone what to do, by the way. Like I said, I think the Watch has a good community, certainly one healthier than the Codex or NMA's in many ways, but still spots for improvement.
First, thanks for the support. Lots of room for improvement, I'm sure. It's not so easy for me to see the "path" to those improvements.

When you say "allowing", what action are you specifically recommending? In this case, are you suggesting we warn bemushroomed? Edit the post? Contrary to some of the claims floating around out there, we try to take a very light hand to moderation. In fact, I closed my first thread ever a few weeks ago and the other staff admonished me for taking the wrong action (and, in hindsight, they were right).

I tend to think you posted a fair response and txa backed it up, so the point has been made. And, on the other hand, I think bemushroomed has the right to make those comments — within reason — and I think his intent was perhaps a little different, anyway.
--
-= RPGWatch =-
Dhruin is offline

Dhruin

Dhruin's Avatar
SasqWatch
Moderator
RPGWatch Team

#14

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 11,968
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 04:39
Originally Posted by Dhruin View Post
When you say "allowing", what action are you specifically recommending?
I don't know since I'm not staff, obviously, and moderating well takes a lot of indepth knowledge of a community, easy to miss but true.

But something that works for me is a simple question: does the post add anything other than the trollish remark? If someone is simply replying to someone else or taking part in the debate and the remark is just peripheral, it's better to let it slip and/or try to steer the thread.

In this case I'd have a hard time blaming Bemushroomed since he's simply replying in the spirit of the original newsposted article. The problem is when valid articles on Fallout 3 turn into huge flame-debates because people would rather discuss NMA than Fallout 3, or when the content of a Codex article gets ignored in favour if just dismissing or complaining about the Codex. In those cases, the trolling kills potential valid debates, and lures in people who're just in it for these kind of personal attack-threads rather than actual game debate.
That sucks, and I think you could argue for removing said posts, or moving them into a generic "NMA sucks" and "Codex sucks" thread. The same applies, obviously, to dismissing opinions as "console kiddies" or similar Codex/NMA-esque things, but I don't think that's as big a problem here.
Last edited by Brother None; February 27th, 2010 at 05:49.
Brother None is offline

Brother None

Brother None's Avatar
SasqWatch

#15

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,558
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 07:26
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Equally, I'd argue the Watch long since reached the point where moderating for cross-community trolling is a good idea.
It seems so. But TBH, we weren't prepared for such a situation. As Dhruin already explained we have deliberately decided not to moderate much. Our experience at RPGDot was that over-moderation almost killed the community. We want to avoid this here.

Containment measures have been taken. All the rubbish is moved into the Cesspool thread. So far nobody was banned because we didn't want to cross that line. Doing so later is still a possibility. In that case we would have to be prepared to ban dozens of people to make our position clear.
Gorath is offline

Gorath

Gorath's Avatar
Prime Evil
Moderator
RPGWatch Team
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#16

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,906
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 14:33
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Equally, I'd argue the Watch long since reached the point where moderating for cross-community trolling is a good idea.
Hear hear. Idiocy breeds idiocy, and there's no shortage of idiots in the world. Once stuff like that takes root, it can drag down the culture of a site very quickly indeed.
Prime Junta is offline

Prime Junta

RPGCodex' Little BRO

#17

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 14:44
Originally Posted by Gorath View Post
Containment measures have been taken. All the rubbish is moved into the Cesspool thread. So far nobody was banned because we didn't want to cross that line. Doing so later is still a possibility. In that case we would have to be prepared to ban dozens of people to make our position clear.
IMO the Watch dropped the ball on this one. A low-moderation policy is wonderful. Really. It's one of the things that make this site what it is. However, responding to a childish site raid is another thing that has the potential to spiral out of control and do real damage, to people and to communities.

What would I have done? To start with, when it was still just a few people poking (mostly) good-natured fun at us, nothing. But once the serious trolling started, I would've declared martial law.

Whut?

This:

* Change site's livery to olive drab.
* Put a splash screen on login with "LISTEN UP BITCHES" as the headline, explaining the following new (temporary) rules in place:
* Suspend new registrations.
* Immediately remove all threads with even a whiff of cross-site trolling (in either direction).
* From that point onward, immediately ban anyone participating in cross-site trolling, in any role whether it's defending or attacking the Watch, or defending or attacking the Codex, with the bans would automatically expire when martial law is revoked.
* The martial laws would be reviewed once a week, and taken down as soon as circumstances warrant.
* And from there on out, cross-site trolling would be an offense subject to moderation.

So what if the asshats participating in the raid call us moderation Nazis or nanny-staters or whatever? Let 'em.

(Besides, that's not what they disrespect anyway they disrespect what they call "faggotry" i.e., a wishy-washy forced-neutral ball-less position of not daring to take a stand and speak up lest you be thought "not nice.")
Prime Junta is offline

Prime Junta

RPGCodex' Little BRO

#18

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8,540
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 14:48
Is it possible we could focus on what's really interesting? I mean, as in the games we all enjoy.

Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of the pointless Codex-oriented posts. The place is what it is, and they've demonstrated what they're about - and plenty people from here fell into the trap. No getting around that.

Now, let's get on with the show - please.

DArtagnan

Guest

#19

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

February 27th, 2010, 19:56
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
Really? I'd say insulting an inanimate object is preferable to insulting a human being. Maybe that's just me.
Well ok, IRL they are insulting the people that likes the product and the people behind it. To insult them because they want to make a product that many people can enjoy and to make money, well, that's just pathethic. In the mind of a 12 year old (/and fanboys - who are just as intelligent and narrow minded) maybe that's how the industry works; the game companies creates games, not to sell them, but to satisfy a really really small group of extremely conservative people. They need to grow up, and that's what the article says really well.
bemushroomed is offline

bemushroomed

bemushroomed's Avatar
outlander

#20

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Fallout 3 - Editorial @ Destructoid
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by DragonByte Security (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch