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February 12th, 2020, 17:26
Finally got a chance to play Total War - Three Kingdoms. I'm really enjoying the new historical setting, and look forward to playing the game set in the Trojan War this year.

Might replay the new Wolfenstein games next.
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February 12th, 2020, 18:48
Originally Posted by you View Post
Pretty much - are you playing on impossible which is quite possible ?
No, on hard. I tend to never play on hardest difficulty as it feels like a chore at that point in most games.

Seems quite good for now.
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February 12th, 2020, 20:25
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Might replay the new Wolfenstein games next.
Not sure if you played ‘Youngblood’, but if not I would recommend skipping it, as it is not up to the standard of the other three.
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February 12th, 2020, 20:31
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Not sure if you played ‘Youngblood’, but if not I would recommend skipping it, as it is not up to the standard of the other three.
Yeah I heard a lot of negative opinions about that game. Mostly because of how Co-Op affected the gameplay compared to the other games. Though its a spin-off.
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February 12th, 2020, 21:13
Yep, so it was basically "I'm not getting what I want so its flawed/there is no need for KS" post.

You don't "need" to micromanage/pause every second to play games like BG/Pathfinder etc. Whether you want to or not is a different story.

I was defending RTwP, not Kingmaker but sure, whatever.

And if you were paying attention, you were responding to Pongo's post regarding Kingmaker TB mod, not Pladio.

You don't like WotR KS, don't fund it - problem solved.

Multiplayer for BG/Kingmaker/WotR? What a stupid idea.

Dismemberment? Yeah, I'm not too excited about it but there are people who are - just look at Arkadia's post on WotR thread. KS just passed $1M mark, so clearly Owlcat is offering something people like.

But sure, wah wah, I'm not getting what I want.

Back to topic. I'm playing MHW: Iceborne, mainly having fun with house decoration.
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February 12th, 2020, 22:49
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
You don't "need" to micromanage/pause every second to play games like BG/Pathfinder etc. Whether you want to or not is a different story.
Ahh…my favorite topic. Next to why Firaxis XCom sucks.
(well, it doesn't really suck, but I don't like it's dumbled down mechanics)

"The Need to micromanage" depends on the playstyle and how demanding the game should be for you.
And that's inherently the issue with RTwP: The games are usually designed to be played "casually". If you want challenging combats in these games, where you actually need to use your characters abilities in a way which makes sense you have a problem.

Why do you have a problem? Because challenge degrades by the frequency of pressing pause. That is until you pause the game multiple times per second at which point it's of almost no additional use. But at that point the flow of the game is far worse than in a comparable turn based game.

The alternative is to basically say "screw it, I just play without pause alltogether". That's challenging as well ofc. But broken in the same way.

So the only "good" way to play these games is to do it as intended: "casually". At that point the RTwP strengths also have their advantages: You can just rush through combat and don't need to bother with it, if you don't like to.

But if you play for the combat, game systems and challenges, then it's basically not working depending on the usefulness of maximizing pause. I thought about a mathematical expression for both (and yeah, I actually just had fun doing so )

Turn based mode would be: R=S
R=Real Difficulty (Skill required from player)
S=Set Difficulty

RealTime mode would be: R=S+P
R=Real Difficulty (Skill required from player)
S=Set Difficulty
P=Speed based difficulty

RTwP would be: R=S+(P*U/F)
R=Real Difficulty (Skill required from player)
S=Set Difficulty
P=Speed based difficulty
U=Factor for Usefulness of Pressing Pause
F=Frequency of Pause

Now how good RTwP works for challenging games can be determined by how cumbersome it is, to reach (P*U/F)=0.
E.g. in Games like Stellaris, it's very easy as Speed based difficulty (P) is dynamic and can be set very low and the Factor for Usefulness of Pressing Pause (U) is very low. In
FTL however the Speed based difficulty (P) is quite high. However, the Factor for Usefulness of Pressing Pause (U) is quite low.
For most RTwP games like POE however it's beyond the level I think is comfortable to play and to finally be challenged by the inherent difficulty and not by the speed/controls.

Still had fun with POE…but it's just so tedious, that I rather play games with TB and therefore skipped Pathfinder.
Wondering how fast this fight from POE would have been:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-IZW1__-8g
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February 12th, 2020, 23:15
People can analyze things as much as they want, and try to rationalize why one system is better than the other, but it won't change the fact that it's completely subjective.

It's not much different from the first-person vs third-person debate. Certain things might be better in one vs the other, but you can't say one is objectively superior overall.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:23
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
People can analyze things as much as they want, and try to rationalize why one system is better than the other, but it won't change the fact that it's completely subjective.
Ofc course that's true. But that's also true about everything everyone could ever write in a review.

However there are always reasons why you like something and why you dislike something.

And while you could just write "This Game is garbage", it's far more helpful, e.g. in a review, to describe which aspects you like and which not and which mechanics work, which can often be measured objectively. Now whether you personally give everything the same weighting and have the same preferences, that's up to you and is subjective indeed. But…every opinion is based on reasons. Question is if you can articulate these or not. And if people at least understand the foundation of your opinion or not.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:28
Lots of blah blah blah. Why does it matter which is better; why can't we just play the game the way we enjoy and call it day. Why should others pass judgement on how we choose to play the game (esp if it is a single player game) ?
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February 12th, 2020, 23:34
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Ofc course that's true. But that's also true about everything everyone could ever write in a review.

However there are always reasons why you like something and why you dislike something.

And while you could just write "This Game is garbage", it's far more helpful, e.g. in a review, to describe which aspects you like and which not and which mechanics work, which can often be measured objectively. Now whether you personally give everything the same weighting and have the same preferences, that's up to you and is subjective indeed. But…every opinion is based on reasons. Question is if you can articulate these or not. And if people at least understand the foundation of your opinion or not.
Of course there's reasons someone likes or dislikes something. Reasons don't make it less subjective though.

The problem is that most people attempt to explain their view in such a way as to make their opinion sound factual. Usually because they've convinced themselves that it is. I've been guilty of that myself.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:35
Different strokes for different folks, tis what makes the world go round and round. I do try to keep my "garbage' reviews to a minimum.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:39
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
People can analyze things as much as they want, and try to rationalize why one system is better than the other, but it won't change the fact that it's completely subjective.
People can dismiss all forms of conversation and debate by dropping the word subjectivity ad-nauseum, but it wont change the fact that different mechanics tend to produce radically different types of games which appeal to different people for different reasons.

The more apt dismissive that also doesn't discourage debate and conversation is the more correct assertation that "it's not the method used, it's the quality of that method, how well that method is implemented".

Take Baldur's Gate, for example, a game you rate very highly in your personal canon: If it was turn-based would it still have been the same game? If it was purely real-time with no pause would it still have been the same game?

RtwP was quite the revolution when it arrived in a more polished form for the Infinity Engine games, and it's no coincidence that those games hold a legendary status both in terms of popularity and critical acclaim, so we can, objectively, ascertain from this that there's nothing inherently wrong or bad about RtwP.

Does this also mean all implementations of RtwP must also therefore make for a great game? Of course not. That's the generalisations trap. And it's the generalisation trap which prompts people to start saying dismissives like "subjectivity!", when the truth is there's probably something very objective behind the reason why one thing becomes elevated while another thing doesn't.

Subjectivity can help with things like outliers and the fact that no one size fits all, but it doesn't help progress anything, because it is, by default, a dismissive. The term subjectivity assumes every aspect of improvement to be of equal value, when the reality is it's more often only really relevant in situations where the exception proves the rule.

We can never know for sure if we'd have seen an equally legendary Baldur's Gate had the original games been either turn-based or real time, but, objectively, we do know that they were great games and they used RtwP and that the people who are both fans of RPGs and did not like any aspect of the Baldur's Gate games are statistically so small as to be outliers.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:46
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
People can dismiss all forms of conversation and debate by dropping the word subjectivity ad-nauseum, but it wont change the fact that different mechanics tend to produce radically different types of games which appeal to different people for different reasons.

The more apt dismissive that also doesn't discourage debate and conversation is the more correct assertation that "it's not the method used, it's the quality of that method, how well that method is implemented".

Take Baldur's Gate, for example, a game you rate very highly in your personal canon: If it was turn-based would it still have been the same game? If it was purely real-time with no pause would it still have been the same game?

RtwP was quite the revolution when it arrived in a more polished form for the Infinity Engine games, and it's no coincidence that those games hold a legendary status both in terms of popularity and critical acclaim, so we can, objectively, ascertain from this that there's nothing inherently wrong or bad about RtwP.

Does this also mean all implementations of RtwP must also therefore make for a great game? Of course not. That's the generalisations trap. And it's the generalisation trap which prompts people to start saying dismissives like "subjectivity!", when the truth is there's probably something very objective behind the reason why one thing becomes elevated while another thing doesn't.

Subjectivity can help with things like outliers and the fact that no one size fits all, but it doesn't help progress anything, because it is, by default, a dismissive. The term subjectivity assumes every aspect of improvement to be of equal value, when the reality is it's more often only really relevant in situations where the exception proves the rule.

We can never know for sure if we'd have seen an equally legendary Baldur's Gate had the original games been either turn-based or RtwP, but, objectively, we do know that they were great games and they used RtwP and that the people who are both fans of RPGs and did not like any aspect of the Baldur's Gate games are statistically so small as to be outliers.
I wasn't trying to be dismissive, but don't let that stop you from projecting.

I actually agree with most of what you say there.
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February 12th, 2020, 23:53
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
And now you come along and call it pollution, give me "blah blah blah" before talking about playing Diablo on Switch?
I am talking about *WHAT GAME I AM PLAYING NOW*, which is literally the topic of the thread. You are going on and on about what the ‘correct’ or ‘better’ gaming system is as if it is some objective quantity.

So … I am ON topic, you are OFF topic. Period. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
Do you really think you're behaving acceptably? Why don't you go back to your Nintendo games and let the adults continue their friendly discussion without your abuse?
Your discussion was NOT friendly, and I made two points: (1) that people want different things and (2) that this is not the proper thread.

As for my behavior? Your inability and unwillingness to move this discussion is the problem here.

I am playing a game - an RPG originally for PC no less, and commenting on it in the appropriate thread. That is the end of that. As for your opinions on various gaming platforms …
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February 13th, 2020, 13:38
So uh, yeah, I'm always happy to drop into a friendly conversation. Uh, continuing with the topic of games that we're playing, uh… I'm playing "waiting for my free Kingdom Come Deliverance from the Epic Games Store" and at the same time I'm also playing "wondering if it will run on my computer."

It's been a while since I've looked forward to one of the EGS free games. I've enjoyed the few that I've had time to play, especially Subnautica and Slime Rancher. KCD is one of the few that I've been wanting to play and just haven't yet. Now that it's free, I'm out of reasons not to pick it up.
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February 13th, 2020, 14:40
Originally Posted by Nathaniel3W View Post
"waiting for my free Kingdom Come Deliverance from the Epic Games Store"
Thanks for the reminder! I grabbed Ticket to Ride and Carcassone while I checked. Not sure I’d ever play them on a PC (board game is best, then iPad), but hey … free.
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February 17th, 2020, 12:27
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Yep, so it was basically "I'm not getting what I want so its flawed/there is no need for KS" post.
Hey, look…. Don't worry about me; I'm just a fucking idiot.

It's like you said; just because it's flawed doesn't mean you cannot like it. And doesn't mean it's not enjoyable, doesn't mean it's not good.

It wasn't supposed to be a personal attack. I like you. I like your Kingmaker party with all women. It's all good!

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
You don't "need" to micromanage/pause every second to play games like BG/Pathfinder etc. Whether you want to or not is a different story.
I think the problem me and @Kordandor have is we tend to play games on the highest difficulty settings. The pause can get a little bit spammy. I'd prefer if I could just play with the mouse only and not have to sit up straight to dedicate an entire limb to spacebar. I could be using that hand to jerk off to my own posts or something, right?!

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
And if you were paying attention, you were responding to Pongo's post regarding Kingmaker TB mod, not Pladio.
Yeah, I know.

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
You don't like WotR KS, don't fund it - problem solved.
I backed it on the first day.

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Multiplayer for BG/Kingmaker/WotR? What a stupid idea.
But the tabletop games are all multiplayer! Why remove it? Online games are the future - Lord British told me!

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Dismemberment? Yeah, I'm not too excited about it but there are people who are - just look at Arkadia's post on WotR thread. KS just passed $1M mark, so clearly Owlcat is offering something people like.

But sure, wah wah, I'm not getting what I want.
I actually like dismemberment. But sometimes I like carrying on even more!

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Back to topic. I'm playing MHW: Iceborne, mainly having fun with house decoration.
I'm also playing MHW:Iceborne! Maybe we could play together some time? I've got at least 3 Poogie related decorations for my house. I could use some help leveling up my Guiding Lands zones, too.
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February 17th, 2020, 12:39
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Ahh…my favorite topic.

Now how good RTwP works for challenging games can be determined by how cumbersome it is, to reach (P*U/F)=0.
I like this!
We're definitely on the same page.
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
And while you could just write "This Game is garbage", it's far more helpful, e.g. in a review, to describe which aspects you like and which not and which mechanics work, which can often be measured objectively. Now whether you personally give everything the same weighting and have the same preferences, that's up to you and is subjective indeed. But…every opinion is based on reasons. Question is if you can articulate these or not. And if people at least understand the foundation of your opinion or not.
Exactly. Trouble is, even if one manages to articulate the workings of their mind, others will still fail to understand. People seem to get angry when they're confused. All they know is if what you're saying makes them feel stupid then you're pretty much calling them stupid. This is why we have bar fights.

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
People can dismiss all forms of conversation and debate by dropping the word subjectivity ad-nauseum, but it wont change the fact that different mechanics tend to produce radically different types of games which appeal to different people for different reasons.
Another good post. I agree with all of this.

(It's also a good example of how potato upvotes people he likes rather than posts he likes.)
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February 17th, 2020, 16:24
Hmm, I'm still barely playing Risen-3, tried Risen-1 but it was too Gothic-y for my tastes. I seem to like the PB games that PB lovers dislike. I vastly prefer Gothic 3 and Risen 3 to the earlier stuff because they streamlined some of the boring stuff from the earlier games. There is still WAY too much back and forth traveling. This is to make sure all of the boat scenes actually happen I guess.
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February 17th, 2020, 16:44
I believe I'm PB lover, but I prefer G3 over G2. Communitypatched ofc.
Note that I adore both games, it's just that G3 dared to dream a bigger dream and even in the sorry state of the release I appreciate it more than cloning one the same thing over and over till doomsday (Vogel).

Risen games (all) went smaller scope than G3. I guess after PB got bitten by a snake, they didn't want to go huge world again.
Never say never though, Elex was good, Elex 2 could push the boundaries again.
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