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February 19th, 2020, 13:28
I don't see how this approach really improves anything. Quite the opposite.
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February 19th, 2020, 13:31
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
I don't see how this approach really improves anything. Quite the opposite.
The approach of trying to confront the issue and deal with it? Well, I guess that many of the male members here would rather not address it at all - that is certainly Mythros approach for 14 years now.

If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.

Anyway, I am getting a clear message - and think I have made my point but expect no changes, so I am done.
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February 19th, 2020, 13:55
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
The approach of trying to confront the issue and deal with it? Well, I guess that many of the male members here would rather not address it at all
I'd honestly like to address it and do something but I'm genuinely clueless what to do besides just not being an idiot.
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February 19th, 2020, 15:13
But I didn't notice anything that I could put among numbered things, perhaps due to mere ignorance, sorry but that's so. Or mods remove such stuff fast, before anyone notices. Or I'm not aware that some posts, especially mine, are not jokes but sexist or something.

I can only speak about myself and I can think of some things that could look scary to someone so if needed I can stop with it. But then someone needs to tell me - man, don't do that, that's scaring people females off.
I don't hide my hatred towards mushrooms, respawns, checkpoints etc - that's nohow genderbased. If it's unacceptable to be disgusted by paid stuff that sucks, well, I won't be writing it any more.
I did post several times that I want a game where the protagonist can, beside a "standard" romance, also opt for an orgy. That might hurt someone's feelings, but I never specified any genders nor would, it's a game, everything works. If such wish shouldn't be written, I will stop doing it.
Then I do yell "boobs" when a game goes oversexualized for no reason except - it sells. Some can pretend they don't see it so if commenting a design is no-no, I can stop writing that too.
Because I cba writing Trails in the Sky every time I write about that game telling people how good it is, I wrote TitS in plenty of posts. If that's not acceptable, I can force myself not to abbreviate any game title in the future just to be sure noone gets offended.
Some games got banned due to "immoral" content in some countries, for example DA3 can't be sold in India because a player can see a sex scene with a horned creature - though only if they choose to. Any protagonist gender. If examples where a game got banned, because censors do not see a difference between RL and fantasy, should not be mentioned, I'll stop writing that too.
Plenty of times I said every game gets a nude mod first. Sometimes I state why. That's an industry fact, but if it shouldn't be said loud, okay, I can stop mentioning it.
Finally I've posted many times I want some game to include mature content. It was never gender specific, even smoking tobacco would work for me (why is that rated M in the first place I have no idea). But if my wishful thinking because the market doesn't have enough mature games is scaring females off, say it, I'll save my hopeful posts for EpicStore forum where developers will read it and maybe make their next game M rated. A forum that doesn't exist.
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February 19th, 2020, 15:27
I don't think any of us here should dictate content. The whole point of a forum is to freely present ideas and opinions. Moderation should exist to maintain order, not perform censorship.
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February 19th, 2020, 15:51
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
The approach of trying to confront the issue and deal with it? Well, I guess that many of the male members here would rather not address it at all - that is certainly Mythros approach for 14 years now.

If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.

Anyway, I am getting a clear message - and think I have made my point but expect no changes, so I am done.
For changes, you'd need to make suggestions. My point is (which I should have made more clear) that broad accusations are only antagonizing people, furthering a divide rather than bringing people together.
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February 19th, 2020, 18:57
Gaming has changed for women from when I first started out. We’re (mostly) way beyond the overt sexism of the past and into subtler waters. This makes it very tricky to identify and do something about it. I lurked for ages before joining and posting, I’m really not seeing what txa1265 is seeing. I do wince a bit when there is a post on the lines of “anyone who likes xxx game is a retarded sheeple” but ten years ago that post would have been “only girls play xxx game”.
I visited rpg codex, took one glance at the shout-box and clicked out of there fast. There could be lots of great posts and wisdom on that site but the immediate impression wasn’t very inviting, which I believe is the point that Eye was making in her post on this thread about pin-ups in the office.
Women like Purple and Eye, perhaps without realising, make the gaming world more accessible for women.
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February 19th, 2020, 19:22
@joxer, I consider neither Hippies, Hipsters or Hugs to be negative things. I'm part Hipster and part Hippie myself. And I love hugs.
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February 19th, 2020, 19:24
I can sometimes be sarcastic and over-sensitive and all sorts of fun things that maybe don't contribute to great discussion, but I think (and would hope) that how I talk to people on this site or anywhere is never racially, ethnically, or gender motivated. I can't spend any time on RPG Codex because it's an overtly and consistently bigoted community that outright revels in how offensive and exclusionary it can be to as many groups as possible. I don't think there's any question that this site is not at that subterrenean level, but of course that doesn't mean we can't do better here.

I do think it's important not to conflate disagreement with sexism. There are respectful ways in which to say things, and not so respectful ways of course, and that applies to everyone. It seems overall that Purple is generally tired of disagreements and arguments which, yeah, I do get that. I often come off as contrary in print, I think, but I actually feel pretty uncomfortable with confrontation. Like most of us (of the non-troll variety), I like to feel a sense of community, and a sense of community is usually created from sharing values and opinons, at least a good deal of the time. If she feels that she's constantly defending herself, I understand why that would be tiring at least, and toxic at worst. I think a lot of us feel that disconnect at time, maybe a lot of the time. I know I do.

A woman on this site who feels that her opinions are consistently belittled and disregarded may well feel that it's because she's a woman. Is it? I don't know. It depends on the person doing the disregarding and belittling. Some people do that indiscriminately. And yes, there are people who think that RPGs are for men, and they devalue, maybe even subconsciously, the opinions of women. I don't think it's in anyone's best interests, including the women involved, if people are afraid to engage with them honestly, maybe disagreeing with them about combat mechanics or whatever, because they don't want to come across as sexist. I think our only real solution is the hard one: to try to engage with everyone as an individual with an equal right to be here and an equal chance to know what they're talking about, regardless of gender or anything else, and to be ourselves, warts and all, when doing so. Nobody apparently agreed with me, but the post I quoted earlier about "RPGs being primarily a male pursuit", well, that's the kind of view that is truly sexist and makes women feel unwelcome and unlistened to.

That was a ramble. Sorry. Have to get to work. TL;DR being respectful is not censorship, it's just how a community functions best, and I hope that everyone here receives that respect. I'll try to do better to remind myself of that when I post.
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February 19th, 2020, 21:42
Originally Posted by Qayto View Post
I do wince a bit when there is a post on the lines of “anyone who likes xxx game is a retarded sheeple”
Well, if you read that you can report the post.
‘You’re a retarded whatever’ is a variation of ‘you are an idiot’, which is not allowed; you are an idiot for liking/enjoying this game.

TOS:
Criticism of a person is most of the time not allowed
"You are an idiot", is not allowed
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February 19th, 2020, 22:43
Overall I think this is a pretty friendly forum, certainly compared to some other RPG related discussion forums I'm aware of. Surely we do sometimes get into heated exchanges (especially in the politics subforum) and we can be more strive to be even more respectful towards each other. It's also possible for people to take things in the worst way possible since things like parody and sarcasm often get misinterpreted, especially on the internet. I think the mod / admins here do a good job and I haven't noticed many genuinely abusive posts that are being tolerated here.

Anyway, I hope purple just takes a break and comes back after awhile. I like to read her opinions here even though she likes RTwP combat for reasons I shall never understand
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February 19th, 2020, 23:26
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
Overall I think this is a pretty friendly forum, certainly compared to some other RPG related discussion forums I'm aware of. Surely we do sometimes get into heated exchanges (especially in the politics subforum) and we can be more strive to be even more respectful towards each other. It's also possible for people to take things in the worst way possible since things like parody and sarcasm often get misinterpreted, especially on the internet. I think the mod / admins here do a good job and I haven't noticed many genuinely abusive posts that are being tolerated here.

Anyway, I hope purple just takes a break and comes back after awhile. I like to read her opinions here even though she likes RTwP combat for reasons I shall never understand
Yes, RPGWatch is friendly forum, much better than other places. But people who hang out here also hang out in other places and sometimes act rather differently.

I left Solasta and Realms Beyond discord a long time ago because people were far more aggressive with their position with TB combat. And let me say, it doesn't fly well saying "I value reading your opinion even though I will never understand why she likes RTwP" or "Personal opinion but anyone who likes RTwP combat is objectively retarded".

Whether intended or not, when enough people echo same statement, it does have gaslighting effect and that can break people who are in a weakened mental state.
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February 19th, 2020, 23:46
Welcome back!/? Hurray?

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
And let me say, it doesn't fly well saying "I value reading your opinion even though I will never understand why she likes RTwP" or "Personal opinion but anyone who likes RTwP combat is objectively retarded".

Whether intended or not, when enough people echo same statement, it does have gaslighting effect and that can break people who are in a weakened mental state.
Yes, indeed, it can and does happen, meaning no support -> breaking people, and yes, you’re right - ‘value your opinion’ BUT ‘I don’t understand’, ‘personal opinion’ BUT ‘objectively retarded’ - that does not fly well.
O and please, do use the report button in case of getting a label that is not in line with the TOS. I can’t say that too often, can I?
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Last edited by Eye; February 20th, 2020 at 00:00. Reason: Clarifications
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February 19th, 2020, 23:49
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Yes, RPGWatch is friendly forum, much better than other places. But people who hang out here also hang out in other places and sometimes act rather differently.

I left Solasta and Realms Beyond discord a long time ago because people were far more aggressive with their position with TB combat. And let me say, it doesn't fly well saying "I value reading your opinion even though I will never understand why she likes RTwP" or "Personal opinion but anyone who likes RTwP combat is objectively retarded".

Whether intended or not, when enough people echo same statement, it does have gaslighting effect and that can break people who are in a weakened mental state.
You're right and I have no clue if I have ever done that so I probably need to pay more attention.

If I have done that to you I do apologise.

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February 19th, 2020, 23:55
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Yes, RPGWatch is friendly forum, much better than other places. But people who hang out here also hang out in other places and sometimes act rather differently.

I left Solasta and Realms Beyond discord a long time ago because people were far more aggressive with their position with TB combat. And let me say, it doesn't fly well saying "I value reading your opinion even though I will never understand why she likes RTwP" or "Personal opinion but anyone who likes RTwP combat is objectively retarded".

Whether intended or not, when enough people echo same statement, it does have gaslighting effect and that can break people who are in a weakened mental state.
I'm sorry if anything I said came across like "you are dumb for having a different opinion on games than me" because that was definitely not my intention. I know I can be sarcastic and maybe engage in some (I think) light-hearted teasing at times, but I don't think I've ever called anyone "retarded" for disagreeing with me about a game, even as a joke. I often find that I'm in the minority opinion here and elsewhere. But it is OK to have different tastes and I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me.
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February 20th, 2020, 00:17
Hmm… but you wrote
“I like to read her opinions here even though she likes RTwP combat for reasons I shall never understand”
There is some friction there, I mean how can anyone value something if you do not understand it? And admit will never understand it?
I do understand you may have been thinking of her opinion about other subjects or other preferences, but well this particular remark is a bit scratchy, if you get my drift.
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February 20th, 2020, 00:41
The whole issue of turn-based terrorism has been bubbling up for quite a while now, it's what culminated in forcing Pillars of Eternity 2 to have a turn-based option. The devs were tweeting about it but as someone who's allergic to twitter I have no record of it beyond my memory.

And the problem with tackling these terrorists is that they have a salient point, that the AAA scene has completely ignored turn-based content for so long that one, initially, can't help but sympathise with the cause.

Unfortunately, the AAA industry is quite capable of ignoring them, so they find victories in the AA sphere and treat it like it's some major crusade being fulfilled when the reality is all their doing is fucking over the also neglected RTwP scene. Sort of like a small kid kicking another small kid because the big kid laughed at them.

There's also the sub-agenda of anti-Biowarians joining this crusade because they associate RTwP almost entirely with Bioware and are deluded enough to think that by destroying RTwP they will also destroy the Biowarian type RPG.

The Biowarian type RPG has absolutely zero heritage in turn-based systems. It's kind-of akin to raising a campaign to make Dark Souls turn-based. It's like, erm… ok?

But yeah, the real culprit is still the 'homogenisation at the top of the tree in the gaming industry', it's just the rank and file plebs on the front-line of the propaganda war don't really have much knowledge of the subject and find they just enjoy repeating catchphrases and the thrill of the chase and what-have-you.

It's a curious war, and one that has and will have some weird and interesting outcomes, but as per usual with most wars, the main casualties will be the innocents.

daved is merely repeating what others have indoctrinated him to repeat by osmosis: "I will never understand RTwP…" - well, in that case, how on earth did you ever gain any interest in the line of RPGs that used RTwP in order to form an opinion on what the next game in that line should use as it's primary system? If you hate RTwP so much, how did you get invested enough in PK to motivate you to terrorise the fans and developers into offering a turn-based option?
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February 20th, 2020, 00:45
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Hmm… but you wrote
“I like to read her opinions here even though she likes RTwP combat for reasons I shall never understand”
There is some friction there, I mean how can anyone value something if you do not understand it? And admit will never understand it?
I do understand you may have been thinking of her opinion about other subjects or other preferences, but well this particular remark is a bit scratchy, if you get my drift.
I don't understand why you can't understand. I value the opinions of people I don't agree with the most, because those are the ones that make me think and re-evaluate my own.
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February 20th, 2020, 00:54
Butt then you understand them, don’t you?

To clarify:
If I expressed an opinion in Dutch (assuming you not understanding any Dutch of course), how can you say you value that opinion of mine?
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February 20th, 2020, 01:11
daveyd wasn't saying he didn't understand the statement, it was the reasoning that lead to the statement that he didn't follow. The point is that just because you don't agree, that's no reason to not get along. That's the foundation of civilization, and unfortunately something that seems to be disappearing currently. People should be encouraged to debate publicly without taking things personally.
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