Shortlisting the GOTY 2019 - Released

Man, weak year for RPGs. I've only played a small few of those, and I think Phoenix Point is my favorite, though I don't really consider it an RPG. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Capt. Huggy Face
Man, weak year for RPGs.

Oh good, maybe I can catch up a little!

Originally Posted by SirJames
Steams game of the year was Sekiro. Maybe chuck that on the list and see what happens?

It's as much of an RPG as some of those other games, and it's more worthy than many games on that list.

Do all you people have nothing better to do in life than make RPG fans thoroughly depressed?

Sekiro: Genre: Action Adventure Game
Jedi Whatever: Genre: Action Adventure Game

If you say they are 'more RPG' than XYZ game then tell us the names of those games so that they can be removed. The year is already a year of watering down to the point of near drowning, adding more water does not help anyone other than trolls.

If you didn't play or enjoy or plan to play anything then just don't vote for anything. Adding stuff to the list for no other reason than you like ticking boxes in polls is absurd.

Originally Posted by Nereida
I feel Dragon Quest XI could be added.

It definetly should. While I find it mediocre, it's atrocious outdated menus design, dull story and grind will be adored by many. Here's hope DQ12 will concentrate the main story on puff-puff instead of using it as a comic relief which would make it awsome.

Originally Posted by Nereida
If Code Vein and The Surge 2 are to be added (they are good games indeed), I suggest Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order is added too. It's really a Star Wars skinned Dark Souls with a good story and a bunch of fun to be had if you do like Dark Souls-like games and can tolerate the Star Wars universe.

No. Fallen Order is a platformer with elements from other genres.
The story… I have no idea what's it really about as I can't stand platformers so will never play it, but I do know it features never mentioned anywhere else almost the most powerful inquisitor (#2 as the lead inqusitor commited a suicide, some others were killd and the whole "inquisition" disbanded which makes it… meh) and a nightsister (not okay, apart from Ventress these were all supposed to be exterminated/extinct at that point). I suggest opening a separate thread about this game because I'm actually interested in details what the game added to the existing SW lore only for sakes of milking.

Originally Posted by SirJames
Steams game of the year was Sekiro. Maybe chuck that on the list and see what happens?

When I wrote Code Vein and The Surge 2 should be added I also checked Sekiro and not a single person said it's RPG, in fact quite a few stated it's *not* RPG. As I refused to buy it (unbelievable, right?), can't be sure if that's true.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
In every game you need tactics to win. I use the sub-genre name tactics RPG for RPGs that are focussed much more on tactical combat than on story and/or exploration.

In English these RPGs are often called strategy RPGs as well. In German Taktik is short term planning and Strategie is long term planning. So I prefer the term tactics.

Yes, that description of the difference between tactics and strategy is a good one. It's a bit more complicated than that of course and particularly in the realms of computer gaming genres I'd hesitate to use the phrase Strategy RPG as any game which uses strategy will invariably be more suited to the established strategy genre, even with very strong RPG elements.

In an RPG strategy can only be used if one has played through the game at least once or if one has researched spoilers on-line. Because strategy implies pre-planning, pre-meditation. Only tactics can be of the moment.

So for an RPG the only strategic aspect is character build, in that whatever build you wish to min/max is a pre-determined strategy to beat the game with. This can be extended if it's an open world RPG to include an exploration strategy to maximise specific locations at the appropriate time. And these are both things you 'plan-out' before you even start the game.

Playing an RPG for the first time blind, there's no specific strategy at all, literally everything is guesswork and hunches and genre experience carrying you through, making countless tactical decisions along the way. And these tactical decisions can be anything from combat to dialogue options.

In effect, the min/maxer turns the non-strategy game into a strategy game by breaking the game and then communicates their strategies to other gamers, infecting their games with strategy. The game itself, however, is not a strategy game in any way shape or form, and shouldn't be, upon first play.

Regards tactics, as I said, dialogue options can be tactical. You can have a non-combat RPG that is a purely tactical RPG, because you might, for example, be choosing to expose one character in order to favour another character, which suits your tactical position within the game's NPC community.

Which is why I'd shy away from using the term tactical RPG, because the word tactical is as meaningless as any other random word without additional clarification, such as tactical combat or tactical dialogue or whatever. Just saying tactical RPG is basically saying RPG.

If you want to communicate that the game plays like a more RPG'ish X-Com then that's a different kettle of fish and X-Com-like or X-Com inspired or whatever might be more fitting as X-Com has already cornered the genre market for team tactical combat mission-based game.

So if the game is not 'a bit like X-Com', in that it has most of the usual trappings of an RPG, but the primary focus of gameplay is playing a team of characters who engage in lots of in-depth and well designed combat, then I don't see why just RPG isn't suitable. By adding the 'well duh' moniker of tactical you'd be putting more people off the game while at the same time propagating the notion that tactical can only mean combat.

When I first heard the term 'tactical RPG' it was when @JDR13 used it to disparage Blackguards, to which, obviously, I argued with him. I mean, yes, Blackguards does have some tactical focus, but I wouldn't say it outweighs either story or exploration, ok, possibly exploration to a small degree but this will depend on semantics: If you imagine the game to be a first-person perspective exploration game which converts to an isometric combat map for combat then it's not much different in exploration to a Gold Box game.

I can't for the life of me understand how Blackguards would be described as a tactics game rather than just a regular RPG, and, even like myself, this whole attitude towards it is very off-putting and I didn't even give it a try until it was recommended by very specific people. I honestly don't get it, it's basically using the term tactics to be inaccurate short-hand for turn-based teamwork comabt? You mean, like, what most people refer(ed?) to as… a normal RPG?

Should change the title to RPG of the year if that’s the intent. GOTY can include any game from any genre.

I am glad that Slay the Spire is included - a wonderful and addictive gem.

Let's keep the short list of games to a maximum of 30. It is already long enough. If you feel a game should be added to that list of 30, then also say what game has to be removed in your opinion. I don't want to make the short list longer.

I'm fine with making the short list shorter though


And adding a game to the short list that isn't on the long list is not going to happen.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
In German Taktik is short term planning and Strategie is long term planning. So I prefer the term tactics.

Would be surprising that any german military manual used in military school teaches that way.

Originally Posted by lackblogger
In an RPG strategy can only be used if one has played through the game at least once or if one has researched spoilers on-line. Because strategy implies pre-planning, pre-meditation. Only tactics can be of the moment.

Tactics can only be of the moment in UgoIgo (and yet) Elsewhere, they require a global view so to plan ahead and enforce ways to favour an outcome. Reconnoissance is mandatory. It is one of the major differences and convenience brought by UgoIgo: allowing ignorance of the upcoming elements of a battle.

Elsewhere, knowing the enemy forces, the terrain or anything else is mostly wanted in order to put out adequate tactics.

As to the long term thing, once again, streaming demonstrates the opposite.
Developping builds is long term thinking. Streamers usually have no time to play a product before streaming it for a first run so they go blind.
And they get their builds correctly.
Because they follow a generic template they project against.

It is generic enough they project at ease. They already know what is coming.

The discussion is about the list of games and not what tactics and strategy means, so take that elsewhere.

I think that was assumed anyway as soon as it attracted the infamous chien But now you mention it, it might make for an interesting topic. If only I could figure out a way for the thread to be unattractive to chien…

Originally Posted by SpoonFULL
I am glad that Slay the Spire is included - a wonderful and addictive gem.

I love it, but good god do I suck at it.

While I played and enjoyed both AoW: PF and Phoenix Point none of those games should be on the RPG list in my opinion, and I feel the same way about Druidstone which is more of a puzzle game to me.

This will be a hard year to choose, because I've played so few actual RPG's. And picking a winner based on it being the only (or one if the few) RPG I've played certainly doesn't seem right…

At least you played one. I would have to vote based on what I've wish-listed!

Well, that's the thing, Slay the Spire is the only one I've played as well… but… I didn't really play it this year, I uninstalled it this year

According to Steam my first achievement in the game was attained on 20th Feb 2018 and the last achievement I earned, my 38th/44, was 26th Oct 2018 and of the 303 hours it says I've played I should think maybe 5-10% of that would have been 2019.

And then it's not really something I'd vote for in this poll anyway as it wasn't really what I'd call a regular epic RPG, or even semi-epic RPG, but just one of those games you keep on your browser to play when you're bored and don't want to get into anything long-term, you know, like firing up Minesweeper or solitaire.

And while the game kind-of has an end, a very quick one, it's more roguelike in that the real aim of the game upon completion is to do the same thing again on a harder map, to which the purpose of that is to unlock the same map but harder again, etc ad infinitum. It also has luck-based perma-death, which is another sign it's more roguelike if you were to pin it down to a genre beyond the relatively new Deck Building genre.

If I could vote for it to be in my 8th-10th place instead of being my 1-3rd then I'd probably vote for it.

Originally Posted by SirJames
Steams game of the year was Sekiro. Maybe chuck that on the list and see what happens?

Sekiro is labeled as a Non-RPG in our database, which is why it is not in the list. I also moved the Age of Wonders and Fantasy General games to Non-RPG

Using the same method as before, tweaked with some of the feedback in this thread, I now have this list of 30 games:


Borderlands 3
Breach
Disco Elysium
Druidstone: The Secret of the Menhir Forest
Fade to Silence
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark
Forged of Blood
GOD WARS The Complete Legend
Greedfall
Grimshade
Malevolence: The Sword of Ahkranox
My Time At Portia
Nomads of the Fallen Star
Operencia: The Stolen Sun
Outward
Paranoia: Happiness is Mandatory
Pathway
Phoenix Point
Queen's Wish: The Conqueror
Rogue Empire: Dungeon Crawler RPG
Rune II
Shenmue 3
Stygian: Reign of the Old Ones
Sunless Skies
Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition
The Outer Worlds
The Sinking City
Thea 2: The Shattering
Theseus: Journey to Athens
WARSAW

Using the h-index (see discussion in the most anticipated thread), the following is the sorted long list of games:

Title	Genre	News Posts	Comments	Ratio	h-index
The Outer Worlds	Action-RPG	47	907	18.9	18
Phoenix Point	Tactical RPG	97	1044	10.7	16
Greedfall	RPG	40	656	16.0	14
Disco Elysium	RPG	47	356	7.4	12
Queen's Wish: The Conqueror	RPG	16	499	29.4	12
Outward	RPG	33	333	9.8	11
Druidstone: The Secret of the Menhir Forest	Tactical RPG	21	258	11.7	10
Operencia: The Stolen Sun	Dungeon Crawler	13	184	13.1	9
Shenmue 3	RPG	53	289	5.4	9
Stygian: Reign of the Old Ones	RPG	28	190	6.6	9
Rune II	Action-RPG	26	152	5.6	8
Fell Seal: Arbiter's Mark	Tactical RPG	19	123	6.2	7
Pathway	Adventure-RPG	10	91	8.3	7
Forged of Blood	Tactical RPG	22	154	6.7	6
Rebel Galaxy Outlaw	Adventure-RPG	11	64	5.3	6
The Sinking City	Adventure-RPG	26	102	3.8	6
Thea 2: The Shattering	Strategy-RPG	19	73	3.6	6
Din's Legacy	Action-RPG	14	41	2.7	5
Grimshade	Tactical RPG	11	71	5.9	5
Sunless Skies	Adventure-RPG	22	70	3.0	5
The Surge 2	Action-RPG	23	47	2.0	5
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night	Metroidvania RPG	18	64	3.4	4
Element: Space	Tactical RPG	9	58	5.8	4
Fade to Silence	Action-RPG	6	50	7.1	4
Malevolence: The Sword of Ahkranox	RPG	25	101	3.9	4
Paranoia: Happiness is Mandatory	RPG	7	51	6.4	4
WARSAW	RPG	6	47	6.7	4
Borderlands 3	Shooter-RPG	5	45	7.5	3
Breach	Action-RPG	5	40	6.7	3
Children of Morta	Roguelike	9	16	1.6	3
Crying Suns	Roguelike	6	32	4.6	3
Cube World	RPG	8	23	2.6	3
Eternity: The Last Unicorn	Action-RPG	6	36	5.1	3
GOD WARS The Complete Legend	Tactical RPG	3	16	4.0	3
Mage's Initiation: Reign of the Elements	RPG	45	54	1.2	3
My Time At Portia	Adventure-RPG	8	52	5.8	3
Octopath Traveler	J-RPG	6	28	4.0	3
Slay the Spire	Card-Based RPG	8	27	3.0	3
Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition	J-RPG	6	25	3.6	3
Theseus: Journey to Athens	Adventure-RPG	6	46	6.6	3
Vestaria Saga I: War of the Scions	Strategy-RPG	5	27	4.5	3
Warhammer: Chaosbane	Action-RPG	15	40	2.5	3
Age of Fear: The Free World	Strategy-RPG	2	7	2.3	2
Ashes of Oahu	Shooter-RPG	2	13	4.3	2
Code Vein	Action-RPG	24	14	0.6	2
Dark Future: Blood Red States	Strategy-RPG	7	17	2.1	2
Dauntless	Action-RPG	5	33	5.5	2
Dungeon Of Dragon Knight	Dungeon Crawler	3	24	6.0	2
Eastshade	Adventure-RPG	2	9	3.0	2
Everreach: Project Eden	Action-RPG	2	16	5.3	2
Feudal Alloy	Metroidvania RPG	3	12	3.0	2
Galaxy Squad	Tactical RPG	2	6	2.0	2
Hardland	Adventure-RPG	3	10	2.5	2
Hartacon Tactics	Strategy-RPG	5	7	1.2	2
Heretic Operative	Strategy-RPG	5	10	1.7	2
It Lurks Below	Action-RPG	4	14	2.8	2
Legends of Amberland: The Forgotten Crown	RPG	4	20	4.0	2
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch Remastered	Action-RPG	4	11	2.2	2
Nomads of the Fallen Star	Strategy-RPG	2	21	7.0	2
Nowhere Prophet	Card-Based RPG	3	11	2.8	2
Robothorium	Strategy-RPG	6	5	0.7	2
Rogue Empire: Dungeon Crawler RPG	Roguelike	3	27	6.8	2
Silk	Adventure-RPG	2	8	2.7	2
Sin Slayers	Roguelike	5	11	1.8	2
Six Ages	RPG	4	12	2.4	2
Spaceland	Tactical RPG	3	14	3.5	2
SpellForce 3: Soul Harvest	Strategy-RPG	5	10	1.7	2
SteamWorld Quest: Hand of Gilgamech	Card-Based RPG	3	9	2.2	2
Streets of Rogue	Roguelike	4	6	1.2	2
Swords & Souls: Neverseen	Action-RPG	2	6	2.0	2
A Legionary's Life	RPG	3	2	0.5	1
Codex Temondera: Lost Vision	Adventure-RPG	3	3	0.8	1
Death end re;Quest	J-RPG	1	5	2.5	1
Detective Girl of the Steam City	RPG	1	1	0.5	1
Dungeon Scavenger	Dungeon Crawler	1	1	0.5	1
Dungeons of Legend: Cast Within	Dungeon Crawler	1	10	5.0	1
Emberlight	Dungeon Crawler	3	1	0.2	1
Golden Treasure: The Great Green	Adventure-RPG	2	2	0.7	1
Indivisible	Action-RPG	11	4	0.3	1
Legend of Cenama	J-RPG	1	1	0.5	1
Life is Strange 2	Adventure-RPG	1	10	5.0	1
Micronomicon: Heroes	Tactical RPG	1	7	3.5	1
ONINAKI	J-RPG	5	5	0.8	1
Please The Gods	Adventure-RPG	2	2	0.7	1
Quest Hunter	Action-RPG	2	6	2.0	1
Rebel Cops	Tactical RPG	2	4	1.3	1
Romancing SaGa 3	J-RPG	1	8	4.0	1
Second Coming	Adventure-RPG	2	5	1.7	1
Shards of Azuria	Adventure-RPG	2	1	0.3	1
Sinner: Sacrifice for Redemption	Action-RPG	3	3	0.8	1
Starcom: Nexus	Action-RPG	1	11	5.5	1
Staxel	Adventure-RPG	11	1	0.1	1
Tactics V: Obsidian Brigade	Tactical RPG	2	8	2.7	1
Talisman: Origins	Strategy-RPG	1	2	1.0	1
Tanzia	Action-RPG	9	3	0.3	1
The Caligula Effect: Overdose	J-RPG	1	4	2.0	1
Titan Outpost	Adventure-RPG	1	7	3.5	1
To Light: Ex Umbra	RPG	2	2	0.7	1
Vambrace: Cold Soul	RPG	1	1	0.5	1
Virgo Versus The Zodiac	J-RPG	1	3	1.5	1
Atelier Lulua ~The Scion of Arland~	J-RPG	0	0	0.0	0
Atelier Ryza: Ever Darkness and the Secret Hideout	J-RPG	1	0	0.0	0
Cthulhu Saves Christmas	J-RPG	1	0	0.0	0
Danger Crew	Adventure-RPG	1	0	0.0	0
End of Realms	RPG	1	0	0.0	0
MISTOVER	Strategy-RPG	3	0	0.0	0
Sail and Sacrifice	Adventure-RPG	1	0	0.0	0
The Dragons' Twilight II	RPG	0	0	0.0	0
Zanki Zero: Last Beginning	Dungeon Crawler	1	0	0.0	0

Using the h-index as criteria, the short list would end at WARSAW (27 games).

Originally Posted by Myrthos
Sekiro is labeled as a Non-RPG in our database, which is why it is not in the list. I also moved the Age of Wonders and Fantasy General games to Non-RPG

Ahh, what is an RPG? The age old question!

Anyway, grats to Outer Worlds, I guess.