RPGWatch @ Gamescom - Realms Beyond Preview

I don't dare to speak to him directly. I'm unworthy.

Besides, he was welcomed already once. Can’t keep on doing that

Myrthos said:

Besides, he was welcomed already once. Can’t keep on doing that

Click to expand...

Exactly. Can't very well congratulate someone every time they post something... @Guido Henkel;, you COULD be a bit more active on the forums though. 17 posts in 5 years is...a bit low.

Farflame said:

Wow, is that really real true Guido Henkel? RPG legend. Creator of RoA. Composer of RoA tunes. Welcome to the RPGWatch, Guido. You will be in the stars forever for RoA.

Guys, welcome properly this legendary man.

Click to expand...

Genius behind Bobby carrot 3! (http://g3studios.com/games/bobby3/)
Why every oldschool legend has to carry on to make mobile or mmo trash is beyond me.
Hope he can really show his real genius again soon!

Couch spotted this gameplay video. It is in German though.

Thanks for that video. My German is a bit lacking but still an interesting watch. Is the Kickstarter supposed to start soon, I want to throw some money at them.

TomRon said:

Thanks for that video. My German is a bit lacking but still an interesting watch. Is the Kickstarter supposed to start soon, I want to throw some money at them.

Click to expand...

October, but exact date hasn't been decided AFAIK.

Very promising game. Looks like a dream combat system. D&D is the best system, by far, and no contest, have to say it. It is, after all, the foundation of all rpg systems of today. So there!

Don't you dare diss D&D around these here parts...

The only reason I think people believe D&D is the best RPG system is because they haven't been exposed to more than a couple P&P systems, or because they're such hardcore traditionalists that they dislike anything that isn't like D&D out of principle.

That's also what makes debating it so futile. How are you supposed to argue that D&D isn't the best system with people that have only been exposed to D&D? You can't do it.

I can at least admire Morrandir for admitting that he hasn't played many games besides D&D, and yes, Dark Eye is a much better game that offers more flexibility.

I could nitpicks over what I don't like about D&D, but it boils down to the fact that it's a combat-heavy system, but there are other systems that are deeper and more tactical, or faster and more realistic. If you like the roleplaying aspect of RPG games, D&D is terrible.

I think people who believe themselves capable of establishing what's best for everyone - whilst basically assuming others don't actually know their own preferences because they're not experienced enough for an informed opinion - and who're also, at the same time, unwilling and incapable of arguing why this is all so - are not necessarily worth paying too much attention to.

Also, Dark Eye is a decent system - but, in my opinion, utterly inferior to D&D 3.5 when it comes to build diversity, the arsenal of power, the weight of progression and good old-fashioned fun combat.

Same goes for all the games I've played that are based around it.

Silver Coin said:

The only reason I think people believe D&D is the best RPG system is because they haven't been exposed to more than a couple P&P systems, or because they're such hardcore traditionalists that they dislike anything that isn't like D&D out of principle.

That's also what makes debating it so futile. How are you supposed to argue that D&D isn't the best system with people that have only been exposed to D&D? You can't do it.

I can at least admire Morrandir for admitting that he hasn't played many games besides D&D, and yes, Dark Eye is a much better game that offers more flexibility.

Click to expand...

While there are better systems for PnP, in all my years of computer gaming, I have not run into a better one for computer RPGs. D&D has the perfect mix of combat options, character building options and enemies that have all kinds of different abilities. It is also based on tactical gameplay instead of action gameplay.

Farflame said:

Wow, is that really real true Guido Henkel? RPG legend. Creator of RoA. Composer of RoA tunes. Welcome to the RPGWatch, Guido. You will be in the stars forever for RoA.

Guys, welcome properly this legendary man.

Click to expand...

I recognised the name but I thought it was someone just using his name as homage. Didn't think it was the real person

Silver Coin said:

That's also what makes debating it so futile. How are you supposed to argue that D&D isn't the best system with people that have only been exposed to D&D? You can't do it.

Click to expand...

Exactly. That'y why you can only argue that X is better than Y for all X,Y that everybody knows.

Older DnD systems like in the infinity games (2.5) is not very fun in my opinion although the games are brilliant. To little diversity in character builds especially for martial classes.

But I've yet to play a CRPG where character building is as much fun as it was in NwN2. The addition of feats and prestige classes made planning your character builds half of the enjoyment.

The only game that comes even close (that I've played) is PoE2, the addition of multiclassing on the already good PoE system makes it versatile enough to be really interesting.

Distinctive classes, loads of options. That's fun. (To me). I think that's what really made me disappointed in DA:O, it has nowhere near the possibilities of DnD 3.5 nor PoE. TDE? Haven't played it in PnP, but at least in the CRPG's that I've played that utilized it levelling felt nowhere near as rewarding as in DnD. That might have been more about implementation though.

Darth Tagnan said:

Also, Dark Eye is a decent system - but, in my opinion, utterly inferior to D&D 3.5 when it comes to build diversity

Click to expand...

That's complete nonsense. 4th edition Dark Eye essentially has freeform character building, or something very close to it, and more attributes and skill choices than D&D.

D&D has a very rigid class structure that doesn't allow for 1/4th the build diversity of Dark Eye. Pease stop talking out your ass.

TomRon said:

Older DnD systems like in the infinity games (2.5) is not very fun in my opinion although the games are brilliant. To little diversity in character builds especially for martial classes.

But I've yet to play a CRPG where character building is as much fun as it was in NwN2. The addition of feats and prestige classes made planning your character builds half of the enjoyment.

The only game that comes even close (that I've played) is PoE2, the addition of multiclassing on the already good PoE system makes it versatile enough to be really interesting.

Distinctive classes, loads of options. That's fun. (To me). I think that's what really made me disappointed in DA:O, it has nowhere near the possibilities of DnD 3.5 nor PoE. TDE? Haven't played it in PnP, but at least in the CRPG's that I've played that utilized it levelling felt nowhere near as rewarding as in DnD. That might have been more about implementation though.

Click to expand...

Agreed. 1st and 2nd Edition D&D sucked for diversity - and it's also the reason I think a lot of people prefer other systems.

While PoE2 is a huge step forward for their system, it still pales in comparison to 3.5 - not least of which because it's limited to only two classes, and especially because of how they handle active abilities as tied into the class itself, rather than feats you can pick as other classes.

Of course, there's a difference between 3.5 with only Player's Handbook - and then the ridiculous amount of extra material available.

Even so, the nature of multiclassing and the flexibility of the feat and spell system means you will almost literally never run out of builds.

In PoE 2 - there's a much more finite amount of combinations.

As for the best PnP system - that's really down to what you prefer and what you enjoy about PnP.

For me, the best part of PnP is completely separate from the rule system. It's the ability to play any role - and to share a social power fantasy, or any kind of fantasy, really. The ability to say or act in a way that would be counter to the best interests of yourself or others in real life.

Games have yet to enable that to the same extent, and therefore it's a complicated discussion.

I've tried many, many PnP systems in my time. Probably close to 40 or 50.

But I've only played extensively using a handful of systems, including DnD (the first iteration), AD&D, Gurps, Dangerous Journeys, Shadowrun, Drager og Dæmoner, Rolemaster - and a few others.

So, while my experience with PnP is pretty vast - I can't claim to have intricate knowledge of all of them. Far from it.

But, since we're talking about computer games - there's really only a very limited selection from which we can pick and compare.

Fallout SPECIAL is loosely based around Gurps, and Drakensang (old and new) is based on Dark Eye. There are others out there - but the vast majority of computer games are based on either D&D or something unique that the developers themselves came up with.

Also, we need to decide if we're talking about the system in an overall sense, or if we're talking about specific features - including character building, character progression, loot design, combat or other individual features.

I've played hundreds of CRPGs in my time - and I really, truly, struggle to remember a game with a more satisfying OVERALL "game" rule-system than those based around DnD 3+ edition.

Archangel said:

While there are better systems for PnP, in all my years of computer gaming, I have not run into a better one for computer RPGs.

Click to expand...

Given there have only been about four other semi-faithful P&P videogame adaptions, that's not the least bit surprising.

It is also based on tactical gameplay instead of action gameplay.

Click to expand...

D&D would only be considered tactical by a casual gamer. 4th edition was actually a step in the right direction in terms of complex wargaming, but sadly they went backwards.

Silver Coin said:

That's complete nonsense. 4th edition Dark Eye essentially has freeform character building, or something very close to it, and more attributes and skill choices than D&D.

D&D has a very rigid class structure that doesn't allow for 1/4th the build diversity of Dark Eye. Pease stop talking out your ass.

Click to expand...

Let's not get upset

We're sharing opinions. You don't exactly appear more convincing by turning into a 5-year old.

I'm afraid freeform character building in and of itself doesn't necessarily translate into fun or meaningful diversity.

To me, fun and meaningful diversity isn't about the amount of builds I can come up with with 2% more in Swords and 4% less in Shields (or whatever) - it's the amount of distinct builds that are unique, effective and fun.

As for 3+ Edition of DnD - the class distinction is a large part of what's great about it, because you get to combine flavor with diversity - which is usually what's missing in systems like Dark Eye - where it's essentially just percentage numbers that separate builds rather than a rich range of fun active abilities designed around a specific power fantasy.

The identity of D&D classes - combined with the flexibility of non-class feats and spells on top of a rich multiclass system is what makes the system vastly superior to most others.

With that said, I don't remember which version of PnP Dark Eye I tried once 20 years ago - and I'm sure it has evolved since then.

But based on the computer games I've played - including the three old RoA games - and the two relatively recent Drakensang games - the system is utterly, utterly inferior in almost every single way.

However, that would be merely my opinion.

Morrandir said:

Exactly. That'y why you can only argue that X is better than Y for all X,Y that everybody knows.

Click to expand...

Or people without advanced knowledge of different RPG systems could stop pretending like they're qualified to praise D&D as being one of the best.

It's a cognitive bias. People that have only played D&D are obviously going to think D&D is the best thing ever, just as someone that has only played Fallout 4 would think it's the best game ever, because they haven't played New Vegas yet.