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August 8th, 2019, 23:38
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
Their last one, Technomancer with a party size of 3.
But indeed I misremembered Mars: War Logs and Bound by Flame where in fact you could only have one companion at a time (with only quest-specific exceptions where you have 2).

That means the number of companions increased over time, so even less a surprise that we now have 3 of them at a time.
You are right regarding previous games, but its the same in Greedfall as in Technomancer. You have 2 companions. The third one is your hero. Its party of 3 - so the hero + 2.
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August 9th, 2019, 23:34
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I didn't think the grinding in War Logs was that bad to be honest. Maybe I just didn't notice it because I was enjoying the setting so much. It was also a pretty short game by RPG standards.

Which Dragon Age are you referring to?
Dragon Age origins
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August 10th, 2019, 03:51
Originally Posted by Tactician View Post
Dragon Age origins
If you thought DA:O had too much grinding, stay far, far away from the sequels.
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August 10th, 2019, 13:22
What grinding in DA:O, lol? Where? Tell me so I can max everything before proceeding with the game past the initial area.
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August 10th, 2019, 19:38
Yeah, I wouldn't consider DA:O grindy myself. Enemies don't respawn, and there aren't a lot of random encounters. The only place I remember feeling like there was almost too much combat was in the Deep Roads.
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August 10th, 2019, 22:41
I suppose it depends on his definition of grinding. Some people consider alot of combat grinding. I don't, to me grinding is when you intentionally kill respawning enemies for farming XP, loot or random drops. So imo DA:O isnt grindy.

Back on topic, Greedfall may be the first non fromsoft game I play at release in quite a while. It's looking better and better. Monsters look great and there seems to be a lot of variety from what I've seen. The combat looks solid, would like some clarification on the RTWP aspect though. Dialouge looks decent as well. My one caveat, With all the loot I fear it will be yet another game with a diablo type loot system which is too bad but I'll get over it.
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August 11th, 2019, 01:36
Grindy is back when EverQuest One very first came out and you tried to solo mobs with kiting for days on end trying to level. Shudder … I remember those days with my druid. Different time in my life for sure lol.

But in general I am with Sakichop on this one for personal definition.
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August 11th, 2019, 01:55
So, how many people planning to play this on release? I'm still undecided since I find the price a bit steep - $70 AUD.
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August 11th, 2019, 03:35
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
So, how many people planning to play this on release? I'm still undecided since I find the price a bit steep - $70 AUD.
Well unless something comes out in the news before hand I plan on it.

I am currently playing Technomancer and to my surprise enjoying it as its not my usual kind of game and I had read so many bad reviews. Its a rough one but I keep finding myself going back and staying up late to see one more mission, one more level, one more story nugget, one more dialogue. A sign I am enjoying it.

So based on that, and that it looks like each game they release it improves a bit, I am tentatively hopeful on Greedfall.
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August 11th, 2019, 16:05
I seriously doubt I'll play this right when it's released, I just don't do that very often these days. I like to give them time to work out any and all bugs, and maybe even get a price drop, then I ask friends about the game as well as check for reviews on this site.
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August 12th, 2019, 05:21
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
If you thought DA:O had too much grinding, stay far, far away from the sequels.
haha! right on
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August 12th, 2019, 05:32
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't consider DA:O grindy myself. Enemies don't respawn, and there aren't a lot of random encounters. The only place I remember feeling like there was almost too much combat was in the Deep Roads.
Okay well I played this like quite few years ago now but it was the first big city on your quest to gain allies.
I kept wondering why as I was trying to go around the city to take on a quest every step I took these thieves would keep popping up.
I think I I fought like 13 or 14 battles with the same types of Thieves the exact same type of stats and the exact same type of combat. Randomly popping up in the city I don't know if they were set locations or not but there was a ton of them. I spent almost three hours doing the same thing it was so tedious, a complete waste of time very poor design, a designer knows this.
They're just trying to fill The game with fluff content, let's make it a hundred plus hours of content doesn't matter if 50 hours of the same repetitive tedious button clicking over and over, it's so uninteresting. If the combat is using different tactics or different opponents at least there's some variety to but this was the exact same type of combat.
Not to mention let's go into the beginning of the game where you're finding those gray undead things it's the same opponent for the first full chapter it’s just the same type of battle over and over. And then you go into the fade a completely unnecessary part and you're fighting the same thing in the fade over and over again. The first chapter the game is, besides the introduction story narrative,a complete time sink into repetitive combat,I would consider that Grindy.
I would way rather have 12 hours of uniquely interesting content with six battles a half an hour to 40 minutes, and are all unique tactically, and then the rest of the time great exploration, dialogue intrigue, lore etcetera then have the first 12 hours be 7 hours of almost the same repetitive combat.
I did not notice the combat being is bad in the Elven realm where you're trying to gain them as allies.
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August 12th, 2019, 07:28
Originally Posted by Tactician View Post
I would way rather have 12 hours of uniquely interesting content with six battles a half an hour to 40 minutes, and are all unique tactically, and then the rest of the time great exploration, dialogue intrigue, lore etcetera then have the first 12 hours be 7 hours of almost the same repetitive combat.
Ok fella, firstly, only 7 out of 12 hours being combat is already quite combat-light, what with that only being 58% combat. That would not be a grinding game by any version of the definition.

But more importantly, secondly, when you make a statement like this you're really going to have to cite some examples of RPGs where you've thoroughly enjoyed them when they've only had 4% combat and for that 4% to be uniquely tactical, because, as far as I'm concerned, you're just digging an argument hole to save face.

Saying "I would prefer" without citing any examples is the worst form of critique possible as you're trashing a product based on your own fantasy of some ideal that has never existed. How could you ever have formed a preference for something that has never existed?

You're interpretation of Dragon Age: Origins combat is described incorrectly by use of unrelated language and your preference comparison is something that doesn't even exist rendering the comparison false, misleading and disingenuous.

I see you're new here. Have you been playing RPGs for long?
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August 12th, 2019, 09:51
Originally Posted by Farflame View Post
You are right regarding previous games, but its the same in Greedfall as in Technomancer. You have 2 companions. The third one is your hero. Its party of 3 - so the hero + 2.
Oh, indeed.
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August 12th, 2019, 22:24
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Ok fella, firstly, only 7 out of 12 hours being combat is already quite combat-light, what with that only being 58% combat. That would not be a grinding game by any version of the definition.

But more importantly, secondly, when you make a statement like this you're really going to have to cite some examples of RPGs where you've thoroughly enjoyed them when they've only had 4% combat and for that 4% to be uniquely tactical, because, as far as I'm concerned, you're just digging an argument hole to save face.

Saying "I would prefer" without citing any examples is the worst form of critique possible as you're trashing a product based on your own fantasy of some ideal that has never existed. How could you ever have formed a preference for something that has never existed?

You're interpretation of Dragon Age: Origins combat is described incorrectly by use of unrelated language and your preference comparison is something that doesn't even exist rendering the comparison false, misleading and disingenuous.

I see you're new here. Have you been playing RPGs for long?
Sorry not sure if it's how you come across, but the tone seems to be a little negative in your text?
Not sure if all that text says a lot though. Well let's put it this way I've been playing tabletop RPGs since 1980, and computer RPGs since 1988. and running and designing game campaigns since then, what about your experience. I know quite a bit about RPGs thank you.
I think of grinding as respawns yes, but I also think of it as combat that is there just for the sake of repetitive content to take up time that has nothing really interesting about it so it has very little value, kind of where I just explained that 13 and 14 of almost the exact same type of combats, not that difficult to understand is it.

As far as percentage of combat well let's see Arcanum, Fallout 1 and 2, Fallout New Vegas KOTOR and I'm pretty sure Deus Ex I played way more than 50% of the game, I would say at least 65 to 70% that were not in combat, it was mostly running around exploration, reading, dialogue and stealth thank you.
So I just showed you exactly what games have less combat as a percentage of total gameplay experience, as I described the way I played it, and I showed you examples in Dragon Age where they fit what I was talking about, and this is from my experiences not from everybody's. Also everybody can have different experiences so your argument is kind of pointless. Jumping to conclusions without enough information is pretty weak.
Last edited by Tactician; August 12th, 2019 at 22:57.
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August 12th, 2019, 23:10
Originally Posted by Tactician View Post
As far as percentage of combat well let's see Arcanum, Fallout 1 and 2, Fallout New Vegas KOTOR and I'm pretty sure Deus Ex I played way more than 50% of the game, I would say at least 65 to 70% that were not in combat
Which is vastly different to 4%…

… and none of those games have particularly uniquely tactical combat as that 4%.

Edit: Also, having similar encounters in a row does not equal grinding, that's you using an incorrect word to describe the thing you dislike because you want to use the most negative word you can regardless of it's merit in the situation. The word you're looking for is repetitive. DA: Origins has "too much repetitive combat for your liking".
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August 13th, 2019, 20:33
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Which is vastly different to 4%…

… and none of those games have particularly uniquely tactical combat as that 4%.

Edit: Also, having similar encounters in a row does not equal grinding, that's you using an incorrect word to describe the thing you dislike because you want to use the most negative word you can regardless of it's merit in the situation. The word you're looking for is repetitive. DA: Origins has "too much repetitive combat for your liking".
"I would way rather have 12 hours of uniquely interesting content with six battles a half an hour to 40 minutes, and are all unique tactically, and then the rest of the time great exploration, dialogue intrigue, lore etcetera then have the first 12 hours be 7 hours of almost the same repetitive combat."

Whoops I guess it wasn't clear enough, I meant six battles each, let's say a half an hour or 40 minutes each For a total of 180 to 240 minutes-3 to 4 hours out of the 12 total game-time, not total all combats equaling 30 to 40 minutes game-time. But even that is hard to find.
Thinking about this some more, I can say this you can go through all the fallouts with no combat just using stealth in New Vegas as well.
We can go through Arcanum definitely hitting that amount with about 25% of the total time in combat.
And then there's a whole range of Adventure RPG’s that would easily Meet the less than 35% of the time in combat: the Quest for Glory series, the new Hero U, Mage's Initiation, heroines Quest The Herald of Ragnarok, Titan Outpost and there's more.

The Game of age of decadence depending on play-through you can go with 0 combat or or very little.
All the Deus Ex’s you can basically go almost no combat with combo between stealth and alternate routes.

Beast Agenda 2030, All stealth and dialogue no combat
Arx Fatalis definitely played over 60% of the game not in combat
Consortium and Consortium: The Tower Can go through these with almost no combat the stealth or dialogue

Most open-world RPGs all the Elder Scrolls games, Gothics and the Two Worlds games, I spent easily 60 to 65% of the gameplay not in combat. I'm sure Risen’s and Elex is the same.
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August 13th, 2019, 20:42
Yes so the gaming definition for grinding is getting XP for taking down respawns right, but using the actual dictionary definition I tend to think of it that way as being dull repetitive. And by using the actual dictionary definition of grind it has a lot of Merit. However maybe I'll start using chore or slog, Or even tedious, dull, monotonous; to the Point of being Exhausting, draining

There's a lot to choose some actually lol:
synonyms: boring, monotonous, dull, deadly dull, uninteresting, unexciting, unvaried, unvarying, lacking variety, mind-numbing, mindless, soul-destroying, soulless, humdrum, dreary, ho-hum, mundane, wearisome, wearying, tiresome, soporific, dry, as dry as dust, arid, lifeless, colorless, monochrome, uninspired, uninspiring, flat, plodding, slow, banal, vapid, insipid, bland, lackluster, prosaic, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian, jejune, leaden, heavy; More

Grinding noun
a crushing or grating sound or motion.
"the crunch and grind of bulldozers"
2. hard dull work.
"relief from the daily grind"
synonyms: chore, slog, travail; More
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August 14th, 2019, 00:35
When using words as a means of communication it is usually best to try and find the word that is most useful for the situation, not the one you are most emotionally attracted to. Otherwise you end up in two-and-fros like this more often than you'll likely care for.

We were taught in school, for example, that the word 'boring' is an exceptionally useless word for communication. You could describe chess as having boring combat, you could describe Dark Souls as having boring combat and you could describe Super Mario as having boring combat, but by doing so you're not actually communicating anything to the reader other than the poverty of your communication skills.

Thesaurus variations on the word boring are not much of an improvement.

This isn't to say the word boring is always inappropriate, it can be a very useful word, in the right situation. Usually a situation where everyone would likely conceptualise the described situation as boring: "OMG, I had to sit in the doctor's waiting room for 2 hours today, OMFG, it was so fucking booooring.".

However, you had a very specific complaint about the combat. You said you had to endure the same combat scenario time and again in a row and that this happened too often for you to enjoy the game. So the most efficient way for you to communicate that is simply to say "I got quickly bored by the repetitive combat.".

I myself wasn't a huge fan of Dragon Age: Origins, I played it when it was released, or nearabouts, and I personally found it to be borderline enjoyable. A game that just managed to keep me interested to an acceptable level. A game that was as bad as it could be without letting me give up. However, this doesn't mean I'm about to stand by and watch it used as a tool for weird agendas nor hear misinformation applied to a perfectly innocent game.

Reading your replies here, and your earlier edit, it's a lot clearer now what you meant by bringing in comparisons to attempt to clarify your analysis of why you couldn't get into it. By doing so you just happened to touch upon one of my hobby-horse issues. That being:

None of the games you cite as being you're preferred form of RPGing are party-based games, or, if they are, they are the kind that have pre-generated 'companions' whom one doesn't affect much during the game and has little control over.

And it's this fact which establishes the reason for your personal bias about combat and which allows you to associate RPGs with scenarios that have little to do with combat.

It is a completely different ball-game to make an RPG where you both create and control your own party of adventurers as compared to making a game where you only have to design around one specific character choice. This should be obvious.

If you have a party of characters, then your melee character, for example, is going to get very bored if you let your party's rogue decide that the entire game, or as much of it as possible, is going to be played in the style of combat avoidance. Not only this, but this then means that the developer can't make the good melee item drops occur during any of the avoidable combat - thereby rendering the avoidable combat even more 'trashy' than it could or should have been if all combat was mandatory.

If you only have to develop around the idea that the player is only ever going to be playing one character, such as in Age of Decadence or Fallout, then it's much easier to simply implement three or four different 'routes' through a screen, with each individual route supplying specifically the items and quests that the chosen character requires.

Do you get this? If it's a party, then specific routes are more likely to conflict with the development of all the characters, if it's a single character game, like Deus Ex et al, then whatever route you take the character can be easily developed.

In effect, you're using your RPGs to play several different genres depending on your mood. You want your RPG to be a Thief game when you want it to be, you want your RPG to be an Adventure Game when you want it to be, you want your RPG to be a TellTale Game when you want it to be, but you never demand it to be an actual normal RPG, a game where you play a party of adventurers through a pre-defined p&p-like module.

Ah, I hear you say, but when I play p&p I only play myself, I don't play everyone else and you can have solo p&p adventures. Which is all true, but it unfortunately misses the point; that point being that your role is only relevant because you are a member of a party providing a role that no-one else is currently providing.

When you select the rouge character in a party-based p&p session, you are not doing so because you are expecting to play a stealth based adventure, you are doing so because that will be your role within your party of adventurers. To perform general rogueing skills as and when needed in a generalised adventure that will hopefully have meaningful tasks for everyone at some point on the journey.

The only task that is meaningful for everybody at the same time is combat.

I'm not saying that single character games are bad or wrong or not RPGs or that you have awful taste etc, I'm saying that the preferences you have are inherently alien to the advancement of the RPG genre in it's true form and that what your preference is, is for Adventure Game/Choose Your Own Adventure Game hybrids that have some vague (or sometimes quite strong, to be fair) similarities to RPGs.

I'm also not saying that 'proper'/'pure' RPGs are forever cursed to be combat games, just that, at the current time, no-one has ever really found a more interesting way to utilise party-based mechanics. Except, ironically, Bioware, who, quite by chance, discovered that people just love romances. Which is usually Bioware's most prominent feature that gets people away from combat while maintaining the concept of party management. However, pure romance RPGs are most certainly a niche within a niche
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