P
pibbur who
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Go and wash you mouth!!! Or something like that!!! Please?
Pibbur who reluctantly admits that his all-time favourite game (the Kashmir of gaming) isn't necessarily everybody's all-time favourite.
Why: Planescape Torment, Balders Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights
- Thread starter MinorityReport
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Go and wash you mouth!!! Or something like that!!! Please?
Pibbur who reluctantly admits that his all-time favourite game (the Kashmir of gaming) isn't necessarily everybody's all-time favourite.
D
DArtagnan
Guest
Go and wash you mouth!!! Or something like that!!! Please?
Pibbur who reluctantly admits that his all-time favourite game (the Kashmir of gaming) isn't necessarily everybody's all-time favourite.
Sorry, I don't like reading my games - and I must have exciting gameplay on some level
MinorityReport
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As trasher alluded to recently, the mere fact that people even bother to take their time to express and opinion on these games, positive or negative, some 15 years after their first hype, is a testament of quality in itself.
How many other threads about a random selection of RPGs would people even bother providing controversy, let alone an actual opinion on gameplay. Maybe if these games had been long running series such behaviour would be expectd, such as Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Final Fantasy, etc and many others...
...but these games are, essentially, unique, nothing more than a part two here or there, nothing to fire the comparison vibe since all the way back in 2006. PS:T was totally unique, just one one abstract game in a sea of other games.
But even today, some 15 years later, people still feel the need to express their opinions on them, even though we've heard them all either and any which way over and over again.
Now that's an interesting situation in and of itself.
Like the wizadry and ultima games, one day they will just be a collection of 'old' games that look and feel so 'old' that their relevance will naturally fade in all but historical text and in the memories of the old, chastised for poor graphics and not a lot else, when playing them will be termed 'retro gaming' rather than just 'gaming'.
Which is the big shame really. Which is kind-of the point of the thread. Without updated versions and sequels, there will be no reason for these games to be talked about in anything other than a 'historical' context.
When people buy Dragon Age: Inquisition, they will, once again, be reminded of, and tempted to reinstall, and an old game: DA:O and (some) DA:2, but, without updates and sequels, gradually, this series of true greats will have less and less reinstalls every year as other franchises clog-up the reinstall vibe from gamers.
How many other threads about a random selection of RPGs would people even bother providing controversy, let alone an actual opinion on gameplay. Maybe if these games had been long running series such behaviour would be expectd, such as Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Final Fantasy, etc and many others...
...but these games are, essentially, unique, nothing more than a part two here or there, nothing to fire the comparison vibe since all the way back in 2006. PS:T was totally unique, just one one abstract game in a sea of other games.
But even today, some 15 years later, people still feel the need to express their opinions on them, even though we've heard them all either and any which way over and over again.
Now that's an interesting situation in and of itself.
Like the wizadry and ultima games, one day they will just be a collection of 'old' games that look and feel so 'old' that their relevance will naturally fade in all but historical text and in the memories of the old, chastised for poor graphics and not a lot else, when playing them will be termed 'retro gaming' rather than just 'gaming'.
Which is the big shame really. Which is kind-of the point of the thread. Without updated versions and sequels, there will be no reason for these games to be talked about in anything other than a 'historical' context.
When people buy Dragon Age: Inquisition, they will, once again, be reminded of, and tempted to reinstall, and an old game: DA:O and (some) DA:2, but, without updates and sequels, gradually, this series of true greats will have less and less reinstalls every year as other franchises clog-up the reinstall vibe from gamers.
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IF I understood well the OP, it is for me a rather typical example of lack of mind opening I quote for too many RPG players. I'd say I put in the same bag the attempt to define a definitive tag definition of the genre.
And I quote in OP that once more only AAA RPG are in its radar.
Blackguards, Shadowrun Dragonfall, Eldritch, Eschalon Book 3, The Banner Saga. The RPG year 2014 is starting strong. For me, because I don't need a perfect gameplay matching perfectly some standard definitions. And I'm sorry for those that can't bear different approaches and even flaws.
EDIT: But I like also reading my games, but when it's great reading, like the recent Dragonfall, not boring pedantic as beginning of Torment (never succeed left the morgue).
And I quote in OP that once more only AAA RPG are in its radar.
Blackguards, Shadowrun Dragonfall, Eldritch, Eschalon Book 3, The Banner Saga. The RPG year 2014 is starting strong. For me, because I don't need a perfect gameplay matching perfectly some standard definitions. And I'm sorry for those that can't bear different approaches and even flaws.
Rhaa you get a fan. ;-)
EDIT: But I like also reading my games, but when it's great reading, like the recent Dragonfall, not boring pedantic as beginning of Torment (never succeed left the morgue).
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I first want to say that, although I agree with most things you say on the forums, DArtagnan, I really disagree with much of what you have said in this thread, and find it hard to respect how you have said most of it.
Ultimately, there is no accounting for taste or preferences. On the topic of voiced dialogue versus text, some people are going to like one and some the other. I far prefer text. I find that it has many advantages over voiced dialogue, not the least of which are that:
- Bad voice acting is very immersion breaking. Improper intonation—because the voice actor read the lines out of context—takes me out of the game.
- I can read much more quickly than having to listen to someone "get through his lines".
- I can reread certain sections over, especially if there is a dialogue history.
- I can play the game without sound (when putting on headphones is a bother) and understand everything.
- There is generally more dialogue because it costs less to produce than voiced dialogue. Conversations can be more in-depth, player characters can have more to say, etc.
User interfaces have come a long way, and are one of the only developments that I truly appreciate about modern games. I tried to play Wizardry 6 the other day and it was, to put it lightly, infuriating. Having the names of everything abbreviated because there is not enough space for the text, having no maps, having such a massve HUD and small game screen, having no keyboard controls for anything (having to click to do ANYTHING) is incredibly time-consuming and RSI-inducing, etc. I am glad that games have evolved in this respect.
However, they have devolved in many other important ways due to the fact that developers have decided to focus on different areas due, in part, to an erroneously-perceived change in preference among gamers. Gamers have not changed. They do not have shorter attention spans. It only appears this way because they are only provided games that require short attention spans. Everything has to be action-packed now - there have to be lights, there has to be flash, there has to be noise. Whenever you push a button, something awesome had better happen. Interactivity with the environment, emotional connection to characters, self-edification through philosophical contemplation, a sense of accomplishment the mastering of complex game systems and just sheer game difficulty, gaining perspective on how our world works, and other important elements of the RPG genre are being seen with increasingly less frequency.
There have certainly been notable exceptions in recent years: The Witcher had a well told story, memorable characters, choices and consequences, character development, exploration (although quite "lite" in this department) and consequently replayability, all of which I consider mandatory for a good RPG. I personally prefer a greater ability to devise and utilize tactics in combat, but the combat was sufficiently enjoyable. Others include your Gothics, your Fallouts, etc. None of these provide the party-adventuring mechanics I really enjoy (followers in Fallout: New Vegas, for example, are really only useful for providing interesting banter), but they are certainly enjoyable RPGs in their own right.
What it comes down to is that RPGs, in the old-school sense of the term, take a lot of fucking time and manpower to make. This is the result of the biggest publishers constantly trying to one up each other in terms of cosmetic elements, which has driven costs sky high. Had publishers all gotten together and colluded to focus instead on game mechanics, storytelling, and depth, instead of trying to produce interactive Hollywood experiences, we would likely not be quite where we are now.
Of course, things are unlikely to change, and discussions such as these could go on ad nauseam. Just as with American politics, change will remain elusive as long as money remains such a big part of the process. With Kickstarter, I realy hope for a renaissance in innovation and a return to the satisfaction that games used to provide.
In the end, until we exercise restraint in buying shallow games, that is mostly all we will ever get.
Ultimately, there is no accounting for taste or preferences. On the topic of voiced dialogue versus text, some people are going to like one and some the other. I far prefer text. I find that it has many advantages over voiced dialogue, not the least of which are that:
- Bad voice acting is very immersion breaking. Improper intonation—because the voice actor read the lines out of context—takes me out of the game.
- I can read much more quickly than having to listen to someone "get through his lines".
- I can reread certain sections over, especially if there is a dialogue history.
- I can play the game without sound (when putting on headphones is a bother) and understand everything.
- There is generally more dialogue because it costs less to produce than voiced dialogue. Conversations can be more in-depth, player characters can have more to say, etc.
User interfaces have come a long way, and are one of the only developments that I truly appreciate about modern games. I tried to play Wizardry 6 the other day and it was, to put it lightly, infuriating. Having the names of everything abbreviated because there is not enough space for the text, having no maps, having such a massve HUD and small game screen, having no keyboard controls for anything (having to click to do ANYTHING) is incredibly time-consuming and RSI-inducing, etc. I am glad that games have evolved in this respect.
However, they have devolved in many other important ways due to the fact that developers have decided to focus on different areas due, in part, to an erroneously-perceived change in preference among gamers. Gamers have not changed. They do not have shorter attention spans. It only appears this way because they are only provided games that require short attention spans. Everything has to be action-packed now - there have to be lights, there has to be flash, there has to be noise. Whenever you push a button, something awesome had better happen. Interactivity with the environment, emotional connection to characters, self-edification through philosophical contemplation, a sense of accomplishment the mastering of complex game systems and just sheer game difficulty, gaining perspective on how our world works, and other important elements of the RPG genre are being seen with increasingly less frequency.
There have certainly been notable exceptions in recent years: The Witcher had a well told story, memorable characters, choices and consequences, character development, exploration (although quite "lite" in this department) and consequently replayability, all of which I consider mandatory for a good RPG. I personally prefer a greater ability to devise and utilize tactics in combat, but the combat was sufficiently enjoyable. Others include your Gothics, your Fallouts, etc. None of these provide the party-adventuring mechanics I really enjoy (followers in Fallout: New Vegas, for example, are really only useful for providing interesting banter), but they are certainly enjoyable RPGs in their own right.
What it comes down to is that RPGs, in the old-school sense of the term, take a lot of fucking time and manpower to make. This is the result of the biggest publishers constantly trying to one up each other in terms of cosmetic elements, which has driven costs sky high. Had publishers all gotten together and colluded to focus instead on game mechanics, storytelling, and depth, instead of trying to produce interactive Hollywood experiences, we would likely not be quite where we are now.
Of course, things are unlikely to change, and discussions such as these could go on ad nauseam. Just as with American politics, change will remain elusive as long as money remains such a big part of the process. With Kickstarter, I realy hope for a renaissance in innovation and a return to the satisfaction that games used to provide.
In the end, until we exercise restraint in buying shallow games, that is mostly all we will ever get.
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D
DArtagnan
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Could you elaborate?
Otherwise, I'll never know what you're talking about.
If I were to take a guess, it's about how I don't think remaking the same games over and over will satisfy anyone at length?
As for your respect, that's ok. I have no interest in respect from strangers. I do prefer being understood, however, and I suspect if you understood - you might not disrespect my way of saying things quite so much.
Or there's such a huge hype around the game you dislike that you feel forced to try rebalance it a bit.
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I agree but a lot of text doesn't mean it's good text. I also think games using text should put an effort on concision and trunk well their text. For Torment I found the morgue boring because I felt the memory lost insistence was heavy (ok I know I don't need read it 10 times), the humor fat and teenish, the characters that know but won't tell you was very heavy stuff, the level badly design with an abuse of reuse, this generating a feeling of repetition, and the combats just awfully boring, I know you can skip them.
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