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September 27th, 2017, 05:05
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
It's fairly obvious…I was pointing out that this "open design" isn't anything unique to PB games and that most people ( or at least in this thread) are unfamiliar with it because of not having as much experience with non rpg open world games.
And since that is not really related to rpg systems ( of char progression and leveling), they are definitely comparable.



That is actually good example of poor design…for instance, Black Troll in G2, is easily killable at any level when it comes to required player skill or tactics( as it has very basic AI and simplistic attack pattern)… it is simply a matter of patience as ( from the start of the game) enemy damage/resistances are massively ( and unrealistically) disproportionate next to the player.
Compare it to something like Monster Hunter series where defeating a certain "boss" creature requires a combination of study, tactics, strong understanding of mechanics and high level of skill, while offering plenty of flexibility on how to handle it.
This is a typical misunderstanding of what makes the game difficult, especially among rpg players.
Okay Bobo, what's going on?????

Good talk about Gothic, you bring up GTA
Good talk about Gothic, you bring up Assassin Creed
Good talk about Gothic, you bring up Monster Hunter

Your counters are not really RPGs and involve a different skill set for playing. One of my favorite games of all times was No One Lives Forever (NOLF), very very RPG like, but it wasn't. But when I want to talk about the greatness of NOLF I wont use Gothic as its barometer.
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September 27th, 2017, 23:38
I don't get why anyone should compare gothics to games such as Assasin creeds. Gothics are handcrafted open world action rpgs, labour of love and made up one small indie team in Germany.

AC-games on the otherhand is a multimillion dollar enterprise developped by several studios all over the world. AC-games are kind of impressive. There is no denying it. I should know since I've played several of them all the way up to AC IV… But don't you see how absolutely sterile and lifeless they are! if you stop the non stop action for a moment and observe how the world and the npc behave… It's such a lifeless place. A fake place kind of… Even when I'm absolutely drawn into the gameworld (exploring the snowy mountain in AC3 for instance), I'm almost constantly reminded of that I'm playing a videogame. Gothic tries to immerse you into the gameword while ac-games push all kind of gimmick gameplay elements on your face…

Even the enemies in AC games are all the same. There is the thin guard and the medium guard and the heavy guard. How about giving those troops more depth and personality. I don't remember once hesitating about killing anyone. They're all forgettable cannon fodder.

And gothic was released 2002, so it is not really a fair ccomparison… Yet i'd still enjoy replaying them. Can't say the same about AC-games. They are forgettable fast food while Gothic is the premium 3 star meal with best drinks (and swamp weed).
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September 28th, 2017, 02:17
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Nah, they have the best RPG design in this style going right now.
Especially environment design. One forest region, one swamp, one desert, one tundra etc. Only been done a few dozen times.
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September 30th, 2017, 22:25
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Nobody is misunderstanding Bobo. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. Monster Hunter for example can focus on its combat because combat is 90% of the game. So of course it will be more intense than PB's games because PB has to design other systems and content beyond a combat simulation, i.e. balancing an overall RPG design.

PB games are what they are because they create a unique blend of traits, a blend that isn't found in any other RPG currently on the market.
No actually, difficulty in action hack&slash games has same similar principles in how it is designed…I used MH simply as example, as PB is a polar opposite with "difficult" equals hitsponge+heavy damage+extremely limited/simplistic AI.
That is plain bad design to anyone familiar with those types of games.
Their problem is that it uses extremely linear char/stat progression in a non linear game…solution would be to focus it more on developing a variety of playstyles( similar to Souls series) instead of player going from 99hp/10 damage to 999hp/1000 damage and buffing enemies to kingdom come to "compensate".

So of course it will be more intense than PB's games because PB has to design other systems and content beyond a combat simulation, i.e. balancing an overall RPG design
Their systems arecombat centered, you cannot play Gothic as merchant, diplomat, etc.
Skills like lockpicking/pickpocket/alchemy are a basic/simple addition not a playstyle on it's own and player stats are almost entirely serve a purpose on providin combat bonuses.

Okay Bobo, what's going on?????

Good talk about Gothic, you bring up GTA
Good talk about Gothic, you bring up Assassin Creed
Good talk about Gothic, you bring up Monster Hunter

Your counters are not really RPGs and involve a different skill set for playing. One of my favorite games of all times was No One Lives Forever (NOLF), very very RPG like, but it wasn't. But when I want to talk about the greatness of NOLF I wont use Gothic as its barometer.
We were discussing open world emergent gameplay and I gave you a more complex example from another open world game.
Your analogy is completely off, since it depends on how it uses different aspects of open world design: weather, time of day, AI behavior, (open) level design, traversal, zone density, encounters, interaction with environment, etc, etc.. notice how none of this actually has anything to do with basic rpg char stat progression system?
It really isn't difficult to understand…it would be no different than comparing gunplay in NOLF next to something like Fallout III, "rpg" has no part in it ( only more on balancing).

You're looking at video game genres as some kind of rigid distinction, if it's x it cannot be compared to y…it's kind of funny to use Gothic as example, as it's style of gameplay far more adopted from h&s action games, than it's actual "rpg" contemporaries.
Having a basic system of char progression that changes very basic and easily modifiable paramters like damage output/crit chance/hitpoints absolutely makes no difference on underlining mechanics of action gameplay( AI, group/solo dynamic, attack patterns, difference in atack/dodge frames, etc, etc).
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September 30th, 2017, 22:28
Bad design. Lol. You're funny Bobo.

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September 30th, 2017, 22:38
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Bad design. Lol. You're funny Bobo.
That's six words more than Fluent is usually able to contribute on game(play) design.
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September 30th, 2017, 23:04
It's not worth it when you're talking about Assassin's Creed & Monster Hunter. I'm sure I'm not the only one also laughing at you when you say PB has "bad design". THE literal design that garners them a cult following to this day for games they made 20 years ago.

But please continue.

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September 30th, 2017, 23:12
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
It's not worth it when you're talking about Assassin's Creed & Monster Hunter. I'm sure I'm not the only one also laughing at you when you say PB has "bad design". THE literal design that garners them a cult following to this day for games they made 20 years ago.

But please continue.
Ok Fluent, you'll understand more one day with more experience…well, at least with more than few games coming from same developers.
( and I was referring to difficulty and progression system design, not on game as a whole, you should be able to see the good and bad in something)
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September 30th, 2017, 23:44
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
We were discussing open world emergent gameplay and I gave you a more complex example from another open world game.
Your analogy is completely off, since it depends on how it uses different aspects of open world design: weather, time of day, AI behavior, (open) level design, traversal, zone density, encounters, interaction with environment, etc, etc.. notice how none of this actually has anything to do with basic rpg char stat progression system?
It really isn't difficult to understand…it would be no different than comparing gunplay in NOLF next to something like Fallout III, "rpg" has no part in it ( only more on balancing).

You're looking at video game genres as some kind of rigid distinction, if it's x it cannot be compared to y…it's kind of funny to use Gothic as example, as it's style of gameplay far more adopted from h&s action games, than it's actual "rpg" contemporaries.
Having a basic system of char progression that changes very basic and easily modifiable paramters like damage output/crit chance/hitpoints absolutely makes no difference on underlining mechanics of action gameplay( AI, group/solo dynamic, attack patterns, difference in atack/dodge frames, etc, etc).
Of course my analogy was off, I said as much.
But fine, if you want to bring up what constitutes open world design regardless of the type of game it is in . . . okay. I just feel genre does matter. And no, I do not hold some rigid line of distinction, but when you cross over into a different playing style than the norm for that genre, I feel its okay to say you are not playing a game in that genre.

A love affair in a romantic comedy movie is likely to end in a marriage, a love affair in a horror movie is likely to end with the love birds surviving the night, a l love affair in an action movie is likely to end with the love birds kissing at movies end. Genre does matter, it frames your story. So when we are talking open world in RPGs and in particular Gothic/PB, many of us are saying it exceeds on a level far greater than most of the RPGs out there.

This whole discussion started with you stating that PB games are "95% combat and there is little in terms of quests, locations, environmental storytelling…" When a number of folks posted disagreement with that assessment, you actually bring up action games to prove your point. And your last post/point about character progression having little to do with action game play, kind of makes a statement there. We are talking about open world exploration and you are talking about combat.
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September 30th, 2017, 23:50
It's just hard to believe an RPG fan can call PB's character progression of all things, "bad design." It's one of the main, if not the single biggest reason people still love PB's style of RPGs. I'm sure you understand that.

Difficulty is another thing, but I appreciate that there are some monsters in the world that are impossible or hard encounters, as well as harder enemies sprinkled about. Valley of Mines in G2 was very memorable to me. I just finished G2 a couple months ago, and the design of that game was impeccable. Did the game still have some issues? Plenty. But as a total package and especially where character progression, simulation of an open-world & exploration is concerned, PB has that on lock IMO.

And look at Gothic 1. An impossible forest directly next to the road of the starting camp. The villagers warn you about the forest, which in 99% of other RPGs would be flavor text of no real consequence, yet in that game it actually means something. And the sense of progression when you finally can explore it and not die immediately is huge. That's just one simple example of which there are many.

I actually wrote an entire in-depth article about the world design of these games that Myrthos has yet to publish. I look forward to seeing what you comment on that when it goes up.

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October 1st, 2017, 02:56
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
No actually, difficulty in action hack&slash games has same similar principles in how it is designed…I used MH simply as example, as PB is a polar opposite with "difficult" equals hitsponge+heavy damage+extremely limited/simplistic AI.
That is plain bad design to anyone familiar with those types of games.
No, what you mean is that it's bad design to those who don't prefer it.

Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
Their systems arecombat centered, you cannot play Gothic as merchant, diplomat, etc.
Skills like lockpicking/pickpocket/alchemy are a basic/simple addition not a playstyle on it's own and player stats are almost entirely serve a purpose on providin combat bonuses.
How many single-player RPGs can you name that allow you to play as a merchant, diplomat, etc?
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October 1st, 2017, 08:21
13 more days, dont know what to play til then
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October 1st, 2017, 08:59
Originally Posted by porcozaur View Post
13 more days, dont know what to play til then
Ain't that the truth. You can always do some mop up work in some older games. There was one snow area in Gothic 3 that kicked my butt all the way to the end game. I always had to run through that area to avoid getting killed. I will definitely explore that for a bit tomorrow

And even though I have 800 + hours in Fallout 4, there is always some kind of maintenance thing to do in that gaming world.

I had Invisible, Inc (recommended here) all installed and ready to go but when I started it up, the music really grabbed me and that game looked like a lot of fun so I don't want to short cut that game. There was one RPG lite game that I had started but stopped . . . Consortium. Supposedly the first part of that "trilogy" is less than 8 hours. So that is probably where I will go next week.
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October 1st, 2017, 19:20
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
And look at Gothic 1. An impossible forest directly next to the road of the starting camp. The villagers warn you about the forest, which in 99% of other RPGs would be flavor text of no real consequence, yet in that game it actually means something. And the sense of progression when you finally can explore it and not die immediately is huge. That's just one simple example of which there are many.
The very first time I played G1, instead of walking along down the first path, I turned right and climbed/crossed a mountain to find a huge troll… who roflstomped me. It was awesome. True story.
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October 1st, 2017, 20:09
Originally Posted by porcozaur View Post
13 more days, dont know what to play til then
dos2.
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October 1st, 2017, 22:41
Originally Posted by posfan12 View Post
The very first time I played G1, instead of walking along down the first path, I turned right and climbed/crossed a mountain to find a huge troll… who roflstomped me. It was awesome. True story.
yeah, I love those type of monsters. There was also one giant in Two Words (2?), where the giant would literally one hit you to death. Many gamers had warned other gamers about this giant that was deep in one neck of the woods. I finally found what I thought was the giant area. But the scene was very domestic. A small one room shed, one bed, some food on the table and a pot outside cooking some kind of broth. Nothing seemed unusual, the size of the furniture didn't even seem that large. Just beyond the pot outside was a rather large guy who I hadn't seen before. He was big, and kinda large, but I would hardly call him a fee- fi-fo giant. I walked over to him thinking he might have something to trade. He on the other hand ran up to me and one hit me to death. Ohhhh, daaaaaayuuuuuummmm.

Sadly, Two Worlds had far too little of those type of side adventures. PB on the other hand had that in spades. I remember one area in Gothic 2 that was an apparent Stonehenge area deep in the woods, it was covered with trees and vines. And the lighting through the forest cover was beautiful. When I replayed that 15 year old game 2 years ago, it was still beautiful even to todays graphics standards. I have no problem with PB being behind the time graphic wise because they know how to make the most of what ever they use.
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October 1st, 2017, 22:59
Not sure if I'd say PB is far behind in graphics when you talk about the Gothic games though. For their time they are good, but specifically Gothic 3. G3 is actually still a great example TODAY of an open-world game with a huge variety of foliage and fauna. Vurt commented that it had by far more fauna and foliage types than any other game he's seen, and after playing recently I would agree with him. It certainly has more variety than any open-world RPG I've played.

There's something to be said of PB's engines they develop too. To even fit that type of detail in a game in 2006 is pretty astounding. There's a lot of remarkable things about Gothic 3. I played it recently and was pretty impressed by several seemingly minor graphical engine details (grass density + draw distance, amount of foliage variety, amount of NPCs they can fit on screen at once, etc..) Pretty interesting stuff IMO.

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