Kingmaker - Review @ Tomsguide

I suspect that the actual reason why they have this enormous amount of timers is that this is their way of reducing the number of game-states to observe. If you know (due to the timers) that quest A is finished before quest B, you only have to plan their interactions in a sequence, rather than parallel.

Of course, you could achieve that in different ways, with some careful thoughts on how you design your quest and story progression.

Archangel said:

Normally I would say yet but in a game that wants to make resting matter and not be just another BG or (even worse) NWN2 you need timers.

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Nope. You do not. Other games lived with out that. There's even less necessity to have that large amount of timers. There's other ways of punishing rest-abuse, especially in dangerous environments.

TheRealFluent said:

Exactly. And it gives some weight and realism to the world. What sense would it make if trolls were actively invading your kingdom and you're out picking flowers or having a jolly good time?

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It makes all sense in the world for a character that just does not care about the kingdom. Maybe someone else will fight the trolls? Maybe fighting a whole keep full of trolls is really dangerous for a small group of six people?
Of course, you can not produce a game that respects all contingencies. Realism will just not cut it.

With that said, I would even disagree that the timers in the game are always realistic. Some may be realistic, others are clearly contrived.

TheRealFluent said:

The timers make this game hugely better.

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That may be true for you. It's quite the opposite for me.

I have no interest to play a fantasy simulator. I want to play a fantasy game. I personally think that this "realism is good" idea is a trap that leads to poor game design. Reality tends to be a little frustrating now and then.

Cacheperl said:

I suspect that the actual reason why they have this enormous amount of timers is that this is their way of reducing the number of game-states to observe. If you know (due to the timers) that quest A is finished before quest B, you only have to plan their interactions in a sequence, rather than parallel.

Of course, you could achieve that in different ways, with some careful thoughts on how you design your quest and story progression.



Nope. You do not. Other games lived with out that. There's even less necessity to have that large amount of timers. There's other ways of punishing rest-abuse, especially in dangerous environments.



It makes all sense in the world for a character that just does not care about the kingdom. Maybe someone else will fight the trolls? Maybe fighting a whole keep full of trolls is really dangerous for a small group of six people?
Of course, you can not produce a game that respects all contingencies. Realism will just not cut it.

With that said, I would even disagree that the timers in the game are always realistic. Some may be realistic, others are clearly contrived.


That may be true for you. It's quite the opposite for me.

I have no interest to play a fantasy simulator. I want to play a fantasy game. I personally think that this "realism is good" idea is a trap that leads to poor game design. Reality tends to be a little frustrating now and then.

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So a game about building a barony and protecting it should have no fail states then? That is boring. We're back to Oblivion again - "Oh no! Oblivion gates are opening and demons are pouring out of them! Hurry, help, help!" 6 hours later after picking flowers and helping a paranoid wood elf who thinks people are stalking him you decide to head to Kvatch and close the gate. "Thank God you arrived just in time!! Any longer we would have been goners!" You could do it 6 days later, or 6 years, there were no consequences whatsoever.

I feel the timers are a good thing, because they are lenient and because they add interesting choice and consequence to the game. You may fail a companion quest (I didn't, I didn't fail any timer-related quests actually), but you have to manage your time wisely. I'd rather that than having a game where literally trolls are invading and people are exploding before your eyes and you're out on some other side of the map hunting wolves and gathering edible moss, clearing the map first because "that's what you do in RPGs".

The game is designed around protecting your lands, that is the idea behind the timers. If you fail to do so, you lose, because that was their intended vision of a kingdom simulation. And yet again, the timers are so lenient that if you pay any attention at all you won't fail them. And I'll even admit to faltering on my first run because I wasn't ready for an RPG with timers after 99.9% of them don't have them. They could better explain things in Kingdom Management, for sure. But they certainly make the game way better in my eyes. I don't want yet another fantasy game where nothing you do matters, especially after years, and years, and years of gamers demanding more dynamic game worlds that actually react to your decisions.

Just to clarify: While I am no fan, I'm not against timers entirely. They may have their uses now and then. But owlcatgames are clearly overdoing it, and this interacts poorly with the way they designed the rest of the game.

TheRealFluent said:

So a game about building a barony and protecting it should have no fail states then? That is boring.

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That's not my perception of the game at all. The game is centered on your character, not the kingdom. If you want a realistic game, then the barony collapses, but the story of your character continues (until he dies from a single goblins sword stroke, two weeks later.). And yes, that might be boring. Realistic games do have the potential to become boring. Which is why I am not particularly interested in realism as a driver for game design.

TheRealFluent said:

The game is designed around protecting your lands, that is the idea behind the timers. If you fail to do so, you lose, because that was their intended vision of a kingdom simulation.

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I could agree with that, in theory. If this is supposed to be a kingdom simulation, fine. But honestly, the whole kingdom management system is much too rough for that. And why all those timers on so many random side quests, unrelated to your kingdom's welfare?

On another line of thought, quoting the most current patch notes

Valerie's first companion quest was easy to miss - its starting event was active for 10 days only. Resolution: the active period of the starting event was extended.

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This just outlines what an awful idea all those timers are. It's not just the players who can loose track of them. Glad to see they start to fix some of those.

Cacheperl said:

Just to clarify: While I am no fan, I'm not against timers entirely. They may have their uses now and then. But owlcatgames are clearly overdoing it, and this interacts poorly with the way they designed the rest of the game.

I don't think they are at all, but I've only made it to the end of Chapter 3 or 4. I haven't failed anything due to timers yet, even now in my second run with the game.

That's not my perception of the game at all. The game is centered on your character, not the kingdom. If you want a realistic game, then the barony collapses, but the story of your character continues (until he dies from a single goblins sword stroke, two weeks later.). And yes, that might be boring. Realistic games do have the potential to become boring. Which is why I am not particularly interested in realism as a driver for game design.

That would be a misconception then. The game is half character focused, half kingdom simulation. The entire design is based around keeping your barony safe and likely eventually becoming King, hence Kingmaker. Losing your barony or having an invincible barony would quickly become boring in this specific implementation and game.

I could agree with that, in theory. If this is supposed to be a kingdom simulation, fine. But honestly, the whole kingdom management system is much too rough for that. And why all those timers on so many random side quests, unrelated to your kingdom's welfare?

In my estimation, it's because they are designed to have you make tough choices at times, just like the moral dilemmas and alignment choices you make, along with the other barony choices. You have to prioritize, manage and make decisions. And again, I haven't failed any random side quests with timers. Maybe I got lucky, but if it seems important to do quickly, I generally do it. If I fail it, I live with the failure, just like a Baron would have to. That's why I like the game, it's not 100% realistic but it's a much different and more rewarding experience than your typical "clear the map, then clear the quest journal, then go do the main quest" type of RPG we always see.

On another line of thought, quoting the most current patch notes

This just outlines what an awful idea all those timers are. It's not just the players who can loose track of them. Glad to see they start to fix some of those.

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Okay, so they fixed one among many, just like they tweaked the DR of the bear-like treant and some other early encounters. They aren't saying they are a bad idea, they are saying it was too quick of a timer, probably due to many people complaining. It's not an awful idea at all. If someone is waiting for you why would you expect them to wait forever just because that's how every other RPG does it. Imagine the game had no timers and I waited a whole year, and he's still just standing there waiting for Valerie to arrive. That's ridiculous. 10 days is plenty of time IMO already, I didn't fail that quest but I pay close attention to time management, but if they feel they needed to extend it, for whatever reason, that's their decision. It doesn't mean timers are a bad idea at all, they're actually a great one *to me*.

I guess mostly we will just have to disagree on this. Just one more thing:

They aren't saying they are a bad idea

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I never claimed they did. What I suggest is that the number of timers is leading to problems like that, because the devs loose track of them. You may not have failed the quest. Other people have. Hence the fix.


(And ten days can easily fit into a single "support advisor's endeavor" event. It's not plenty. That's exactly the kind of interactions that may be problematic.)

Timers are fun for first playthroughs but they really sucks for replayability.

You end up doing quests in the exact same order you did them the first time, because there's only one optimal way to play the game without missing some of its content…

Well, it's my experience with Fallout 1 anyway, I still haven't play Pathfinder (one day!).

I'm just going to say I love Kingmaker but not a big fan of kingdom+timer.

I really think 14 day improvement events that require Baroness/Queen's time is too long, especially when you have pressure from quest timers. Wouldn't 7 days work out better?

Also don't like how only certain advisors can deal with curse events, and if they are assigned to other tasks, there is no option to reassigned them to curse events at the cost of failing previously assigned one.

Cacheperl said:

ten days can easily fit into a single "support advisor's endeavor" event. It's not plenty. That's exactly the kind of interactions that may be problematic.)

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I don't know the exact quest dialogue, but if they push that it's very urgent, 10 days would be enough. Usually if anyone gives a hint that something is urgent, I do it immediately, not do a Project I know is going to run for 14 days automatically.

purpleblob said:

I'm just going to say I love Kingmaker but not a big fan of kingdom+timer.

I really think 14 day improvement events that require Baroness/Queen's time is too long, especially when you have pressure from quest timers. Wouldn't 7 days work out better?

Also don't like how only certain advisors can deal with curse events, and if they are assigned to other tasks, there is no option to reassigned them to curse events at the cost of failing previously assigned one.

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I'm fine with the 14 day improvements. I usually do them at the very beginning of the month if necessary, just make sure not to do them near the end of the month so you don't accidentally end the month and fail certain events.

Events seem to happen on the 4th, 5th and 6th it seems so that's when I tend to stick around the capital, handle most things when they pop up and then go adventure.

I had one situation like purpleblob just described, that was my own fault. I'll explain it. I was heading back from Oleg's after getting Bokken to be my court alchemist, and Kassil successfully handled some bandits. Sweet! I open the (!)Kingdom at the bottom of the screen and it's the 2nd or 3rd of the month with one event - troll sightings, a 28 day event. I immediately assign him and continue on. By the time I get to the Kingdom it's the 4th or 5th and the month's events are popping up. I realized I messed up. There was a Kassil event that takes 7 days that came up, a Problem, too, and I would have auto-failed it. So realizing that events usually pop up on those days, I reloaded and had Kassil do the 7 day event and will reassign his troll sightings event later in the month. Be careful when assigning events before the 5th of the month I'd say, don't be too hasty to send people out, it could take them into next month, and save 14 day Projects for the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd of the month maybe, no longer than that. And never do a project in the middle or near end of the month as events will pop up that you will auto-fail. Also, sometimes you can do two events in the same month like I just gave an example of, so if you see a quick 7 or 10 day event at the start of the month, grab it.

Always keep BP in the positive and some on hand. If you get low, sell hoarded items and buy some. As soon as it hits 0 people will become worried your barony is bankrupt. Always keep it there in case some event comes up that will take BP to complete, or some issue happens that costs you BP, etc..

No problems here so far but we'll see how it progresses. I'll return to the capital in like 7 days of adventuring to see how things are going…

TheRealFluent said:

I don't know the exact quest dialogue, but if they push that it's very urgent, 10 days would be enough. Usually if anyone gives a hint that something is urgent, I do it immediately, not do a Project I know is going to run for 14 days automatically.

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Agreed. But the timer for the event being available can both start and end within the 14 days. 14 days is (edit: should be) the absolute lower limit on these kinds of timers.

Cacheperl said:

Agreed. But the timer for the event being available can both start and end within the 14 days. 14 days is (edit: should be) the absolute lower limit on these kinds of timers.

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Agreed. It shouldn't start and then be missed in the middle of a Project, or perhaps if it does trigger during the project, the project days wouldn't count against the timer. Then 10 days of non-project days would be enough, as long as you don't go do anything else that auto-spends another 14 days.

I wish there was a dialog option in throne room to progress between chapters so I can just explore the map.