PC Game - Readers' Top 100

pibbur said:
There is a distinction between what I consider good, and what I like. I consider Arcanum a good game, but I didn't like it that much (I did finish it, though.) Same with Temple of Elemental Evil. On the other hand there are games I consider bad, but which I enjoyed playing, for instance Might and Magic 9.

Same with music, there's a lot of good music that does nothing for me. And books. And art.

Btw, considering how the term "fan-boy" is used, a suitable definition is someone who likes (very much?) a game I don't like.
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I'm in the same boat, pibbur. I realize that the Gothics, Arcanum, Planescape, etc. are good games, they just don't do it for me. I haven't finished any of the above listed games though I own all of them. I did finish Deus Ex though.
 
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Turjan said:
Polls like this always have a bias to newer titles. There are two titles from 1998 in the top 20 (Half-Life, Starcraft), everything else is from the last 10 years.
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Totally right, myself I would have the same tendency. The point is if I regret a lot the lost of some gameplay values present in some old games, but old games tend to have gameplay weakness that haven't more modern games. Also, how can you compare very different games and games played at very different time?

Let say I do my own list, a bit too quickly:
  • Ultimate Doom (replayed recently with more modern engines and I mean with those engines)
  • Myst
  • Mac Civlization 1 (rather different than PC version)
  • King's Bounty: the Legend
  • Majesty Gold
  • Po'ed
  • Gothic 2 + NOTR
  • Fallout 1
  • Enemy Territory Quake Wars
  • Civlization IV
  • The Witcher
  • Dragon Quest V DS remake
  • Portal
  • Freedom Force
  • Heroes of Might & Magic III
  • Unreal Tournament (or one in the series like 2003 or 2004)
  • Glider Pro
  • Age of Empires II: Age of Kings
Now let see how I proceed, first there are old tittles that marked me during the 80's (only few) and during the 90's (quite many). But then:
  • There's titles I know that I could not replay today and enjoy as much I did, either because it's obvious, either because I tried, so I removed quite many that marked me, like Pool of Radiance series, Moria, Pathway into Darkness, Baldurs' Gate series (very good even at replay but not enough), and more.
  • There's old titles I replayed recently and think they could be (or not) an amazing remake but various point made them too old with a gameplay value decreased because of some old points. It's games like Ultima Underworld, Ultima 7, Dungeon Master, Citadel: Adventure of the Crystal Keep, RealmZ and scenario, and few more.
  • There's old titles that definitely marked me and took me busy a long time, but they wasn't the "perfect" games and it's very hard to know how good they was really or how good they could be replayed now. It's titles like Marathon series, Red Baron, Battle Isle, Star Control II, Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger, and more.

Then it's about titles I selected:
  • First there's old titles I replayed recently and been hurt by the gameplay quality, it's Ultimate Doom with modern engines, Majesty Gold, Fallout 1, Unreal Tournament (2003), Glider Pro.
  • There's old titles that marked me a lot and even if I'm not sure they could suffer a replay, I had to put them in the list. It's titles, Myst, Mac Civilization 1, Po'ed.
  • There's also titles I played only some years ago, it's still relatively fresh but time, slowly started increase some doubts and vanish somehow how good I found them, but it's not enough old that I forget them. It's titles, Gothic 2 + NOTR, Freedom Force, Heroes of Might & Magic III, Age of Empires II: Age of Kings.
  • And then all other, are titles played since 1 to 2 years, perhaps few since 3years.
If I count games I didn't played or replayed partially during last 10/11 years, it's only 3 titles on 18 and they are 2, 3 and 6. I'm somehow old but started play very late, only in last years of 80's, it's still since some time and my list is glued in last 10 years.
 
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Dhruin said:
Craig, your revisionism is bizarre.

Couldn't be bothered doing more. The reality is that Deus Ex has always been highly regarded - from release, right through to now.
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No, that's incorrect. Industry insiders were proclaiming it the best game ever BEFORE it was released :p

Dhruin said:
You're entitled to have a different opinion on the game itself but to say the game has only been hyped in the last year is emphatically wrong.
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Hyped by INDUSTRY INSIDERS. Not by gamers. It's been forgotten by gamers for years. I'm active on quite a few game websites and I *never* see anyone referencing Deus Ex.

Which makes me wonder how many people on this website are industry insiders, or who have some other ulterior motive for over-hyping Deus Ex. There's something very wrong with your poll results over there on the sidebar.
 
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pibbur said:
Btw, considering how the term "fan-boy" is used, a suitable definition is someone who likes (very much?) a game I don't like.
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Nope, it's somebody who is such a rabid fan of a game that they can't tolerate any criticism of it without putting up an irrational and often snide and insulting defense of it. I've been attacked in that way by numerous people every time I've commented about Deus Ex on this website. Questions:

1) Why does Deus Ex come up so often on this website? It came out a decade ago. It is a contemporary of Diablo 2, Fallout 2, Morrowind, Jagged Alliance 2(more an RPG than Deus Ex!) and Baldur's Gate 2. Is Deus Ex more worthy of discussion than those games?

2) Why is Deus Ex even discussed AT ALL on this website? This is an RPG website and Deus Ex is not an RPG.
 
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Occam's Razor, Craig? One one hand, this website is secretly stocked with Ubisoft insiders with an insidious plan to proselytise DX3 to a tiny audience, or, on the other, you're just wrong.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

1. Because of you. Have a look. Zloth mentioned it among two others and you decided to focus on it. A debate started because a few of us think you are wrong.

2. Because it has RPG elements. Games that have RPG elements are sometimes of interest to people who enjoy RPGs. Not always - but those elements make a standard FPS (or whatever) more interesting. DX is one of them for many RPG fans.

As for the poll, the old one had run far too long and this topic came randomly to mind. Maybe I was subconsciously impacted by a Deus Ex 3 ad but I just wanted to update the main page while I remembered. There's no hidden agenda to promote DX.

You're wrong about the poll, and the lack of player support for DX. If you'd like to nominate one of these other sites you go to (something with some reasonable potential crossover, such as an RPG or FPS site with enough mature readership who remember DX1), let's set up a poll there and look at the results.

Your call. What site?
 
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No need to search something too complicate, it's right that Deus Ex has been a little forgotten because Deus Ex 2 had been a huge disappointment, that doesn't mean Deus Ex isn't a good/very good game.

If Deus Ex is quoted more often those last month, like the pool on this site or the PC Reader's Top 100, there's various factor explaining it, Deus Ex 3 coming and more on the light, multiple recent bargain of Deus Ex on Steam. Ok but again that doesn't mean the game isn't good. That help people not forget the game and certainly help discover it recently, but they would not have vote for it if they hadn't think it was a very good title.

On this site it's a little special because Deus Ex has always been quoted, generated some debate and more. Perhaps it happens a bit more often now because of the reasons quoted above.

About the pool result of this site I don't see what's so wrong, I never played many of those games but well, I don't see how Mass Effect, Borderland or Stalker could compete with Deus Ex and a shooter RPG title. For System Shock well the game has became a little old and for Vampire Bloodline I'm more surprised… but I never played it. I wonder what game Craig would have want win the pool, System Shock 2?
 
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CraigCWB said:
Nope, it's somebody who is such a rabid fan of a game that they can't tolerate any criticism of it without putting up an irrational and often snide and insulting defense of it. I've been attacked in that way by numerous people every time I've commented about Deus Ex on this website.
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Oh, I know that. But very often it's used much more loosely by people claiming their just "being honest", "stating the facts". Your use of the term here serves as an example.
 
CraigCWB said:
…And have you noticed how the industry was silent about Deus Ex between about 2001 and 2009?
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and …
CraigCWB said:
…
Hyped by INDUSTRY INSIDERS. Not by gamers. It's been forgotten by gamers for years. I'm active on quite a few game websites and I *never* see anyone referencing Deus Ex.
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...

BTW, I found Deus Ex to be a fairly good game, but nothing exceptional.
 
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Dhruin said:
this website is secretly stocked with Ubisoft insiders with an insidious plan to proselytise DX3 to a tiny audience
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I KNEW IT!!
and I'm sure the government is also involved somehow…


Also… I haven't played Deus Ex though I remember reading very good things about it for years in several websites -ranging from the most mainstream to the most specialized ones. Now CraigCWB's crusade against it actually makes me want to play it even more.
 
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Personally I don't really care whether Deus Ex is on the top-100 greatest or top-100 worst games EVAR.... I just happens to like it quite a lot :)
 
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pibbur said:
You refer to UNATCO, of course.
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:biggrin:
I actually did not... As I said I haven't played the game so I had to google that to understand what you mean...
(It was actually just a cheap X-Files inspired reference)
 
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Craig has an issue with certain things in this industry, and Deus Ex is just another target ;)

I can sympathise with the overall sentiment - but really, let's try removing blinders and seeing the response the game gets from even the most enthusiastic veteran gamers.

Since we are so many old-school gamers around here loving it, one has to wonder if Craig might be a bit too passionate about this, or if we're really all just blind fanboys?

Anyway, DE remains one of the strongest games in the "modern industry" and one that truly brought the subgenre forward.

Then again, what KIND of game is it really?

Maybe that's where the misconception lies.

Personally, I think it's a stealth shooter with adventure and RPG elements. It's not like Thief - which is a lot more "pure" and perhaps the "father" of this new offspring, along with Metal Gear Solid?

Not really sure - and Deus Ex borrowed a lot from the Shock games - probably based on Spector's involvement with Looking Glass.

One thing it is NOT, though, is a true CRPG - and maybe if you expected that kind of thing, you'd be very disappointed. I certainly recall reading several previews going into detail about the game, and what they tried to do with it - and I think they succeeded brilliantly. It remains unsurpassed, actually, and it has a fantastic combination of elements, even if the shooter aspect is somewhat weak.

Splinter Cell was sort of the same genre, but focused a lot more on being "cool" and having streamlined mechanics. To me, it was too tight and did away with many of the RPG elements that I so enjoy.

Nah, Deus Ex was and is absolutely fantastic, and in my opinion not a game meant for mass consumption - what with the convoluted story and tons of flavor-text found in books, notes, and computer consoles. Also, the gameplay was complex enough to convince me they didn't make this for just monetary gain as seems to be suggested by some of the people not liking it.
 
Out of curiosity: What aspect(s) of it makes it "not a true CRPG"?
 
pibbur said:
Out of curiosity: What aspect(s) of it makes it "not a true CRPG"?
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There's no way to objectively "prove" that.

It's just my opinion.

I don't really have a definition set in stone, and I tend to go on a game-by-game basis.

Deus Ex just didn't focus that much on character development or RPG mechanics, for me to consider it an actual CRPG. I look at the "focus" of the game, and that's why I think of it as a stealth shooter. That was, to me, the primary gameplay structure - and the freedom to approach the situations based on stealth or shooting.

Sure, you could pick dialogue choices - but the game had you predefined and the character system was pretty basic, with only a tiny list of skills that just weren't that interesting.

In that same way, I consider Diablo an action game first and foremost, even if it does have lots of traditional RPG aspects.
 
I was asking because I wanted your opinion. But could you elaborate on what RPG mechanics it's lacking? (I'm asking because I value your opinion).

> I don't really have a definition set in stone, and I tend to go on a game-by-game basis.

Makes sense to me, as it seems impossible to reach consensus on a precise definition of RPG's. I addition I think there is no sharp border between RPG's and other games, there are degrees of RPGness, and we place the decision point somewhat arbitrarily.

But regarding the RPG-ness of Deus Ex. As far as I remember the choices you make in the game, whether it's through dialogue, actions and the set of skills you select do have consequences. And it seems that many RPG'ers consider choice and consequence as a litmus test on whether a game is an RPG or not.

It may of course fail in other aspects. I have always regarded Deus Ex as an RPG, but I make no claims. I'm just asking questions here.
 
pibbur said:
I was asking because I wanted your opinion. But could you elaborate on what RPG mechanics it's lacking? (I'm asking because I value your opinion).
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It's not so much that it lacks particular aspects - it's about the focus of the gameplay, and what opportunities it presents to the player.

Take Oblivion, for instance, which has several aspects on the same tangent - like stealth and "shooting", but to me it's a CRPG first and foremost. That's because the game is about developing a character as you see fit, and then giving you a complete world to explore at will, and even to an extent change in a dynamic way.

I'm not going to speak about whether it's a GOOD or BAD CRPG - but the gameplay focus is definitely on the aspects that I consider strong RPG aspects, like the character development system and the freedom to be who you want to be, and approach the entire quest structure in what order you see fit. I generally don't like having my character created for me, and it's a significant factor in my viewing Deus Ex as not a "true" CRPG to me.

So, you might say that I consider freedom a vital aspect when I'm supposed to roleplay a character - and that's because I don't want to play some part written by a developer, but rather the character according to my own vision and set of goals.

Makes sense to me, as it seems impossible to reach consensus on a precise definition of RPG's. I addition I think there is no sharp border between RPG's and other games, there are degrees of RPGness, and we place the decision point somewhat arbitrarily.
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Yes, definitely.

It's all down to personal preference.

But regarding the RPG-ness of Deus Ex. As far as I remember the choices you make in the game, whether it's through dialogue, actions and the set of skills you select do have consequences. And it seems that many RPG'ers consider choice and consequence as a litmus test on whether a game is an RPG or not.
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I know people place enormous importance on C&C, but I guess I might stand out in that sense. It's not that I don't love that, but simply that I never feel the choices are sufficient. That's a basic limitation of the medium - which is also why I'm careful, calling games CRPGs rather than RPGs. Because I've yet to play a game in which the choices and the consequences suited me as a player.

So, though I understand why people want that in their CRPGs - I personally think it's never going to be enough anyway, and so I don't really care all that much.

However, if the world changes "naturally" as a result of your actions, it can feel more like a plausible consequence - than having three dialogue responses, with three equally scripted "consequences".

I guess it's, once again, down to "feel" and personal preference.

It may of course fail in other aspects, I make no claims. I'm just asking questions here.
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Yeah, but what I meant was - perhaps badly phrased - that if you expect certain RPG ASPECTS (or the focus to be on them) in Deus Ex - you might be disappointed, because the focus lies elsewhere. It's a stealth shooter - from where I'm sitting.
 
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