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May 13th, 2020, 08:50
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
PP was alright, it does some things better than XCOM but is lacking in other areas. Was still fun to play through. My personal favourite in the genre is the X-Piratez mod for Xcom. Once you get past all the pictures of boobs there's one hell of a Total Conversion mod underneath. And I've enjoyed pretty much all Xcom games and their copies. From Enemy Unknown to the UFO games (Cyberlight is actually pretty good) to the new XCOM's to PP. Both vanilla and heavily modded. X-Piratez is hands down the winner.

Agree on Xcom 3. I'm actually ok with the tactical layer, although it can certainly be improved, but the strategic layer of both the newer games is sorely lacking.
Yeah, my primary issue with the modern X-Coms is definitely the boardgame style simplified strategy layer.

The tactical layer is a step up and a step down for me, when compared to the original games. I love what they've done with skills and character building - but I strongly dislike the streamlined 2 action points approach - and I find most of the maps too small and boardgamey.

Oh, I don't dislike boardgames - I actually enjoy those. I just happen to believe computers can do so much more - and unless you're doing a straight-up conversion, I don't see any rational reason to put such limitations on your design.

Which is why I think PP shows much promise, but I haven't played it that much. I just know that the core design appeals to me more - and I'll have to see about its execution.

But it "feels" like an incomplete game at this stage - but the upcoming DLCs might make it into something that's truly special, I guess we'll see.

I can't get into the ancient versions of the game anymore, sadly. I've played a few of the mods, including X-Piratez - and it's just too old for me. It also seemed a little "weird" at first glance.

My own personal favorite is probably Terror from the Deep - because I'm such a sucker for underwater stuff - and especially when it's got some Lovecraftian undertones.

I'm secretly hoping X-Com 3 will be something along those lines

I also think Apocalypse was a underrated - and quite ahead of its time in some ways.

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May 13th, 2020, 13:50
Haha, calling X-Piratez "a little weird" is certainly diplomatic, I remember being totally put off at first. Sure glad I stuck in there though.
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May 13th, 2020, 14:27
Phoenix Point was my biggest disapointment of the last year. I'll still wait for all the 3 content cuts/DLC to be release (if that happen) to pass my final jugdment, but I don't have great hopes.

I think even its own devs don't really like the game… It feels abandonned.
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May 13th, 2020, 17:09
Originally Posted by Winterfart View Post
Phoenix Point was my biggest disapointment of the last year. I'll still wait for all the 3 content cuts/DLC to be release (if that happen) to pass my final jugdment, but I don't have great hopes.

I think even its own devs don't really like the game… It feels abandonned.
Yeah I have tried to get into that a few times….just doesn't grab me.
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May 13th, 2020, 17:13
Originally Posted by Winterfart View Post
Phoenix Point was my biggest disapointment of the last year. I'll still wait for all the 3 content cuts/DLC to be release (if that happen) to pass my final jugdment, but I don't have great hopes.

I think even its own devs don't really like the game… It feels abandonned.
Abandoned? They're a very small team - and they've released a pretty significant DLC and quite a few patches.

Might be slow - and I'd agree with that, but I don't get the sense that they've abandoned it. What makes you say that?

It certainly seems to be divisive, though I've personally interacted with a few genre veterans who seem to think it's "brilliant".

Regardless, not a big concern for me, as some of my favorite games have been absolutely despised by the hivemind - especially these last few years, where I must have diverged significantly - even from other core gamers.

As I said, though, I'm not sure at this point - but the strategic layer and the added sophistication during combat are both much more to my liking from what I've played.

I do worry about long-term variety and stuff like weapon progression (both seem on the weaker side) - but those are the kinds of things that can be vastly improved with DLCs and mods.

But, ultimately, time will tell.

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May 13th, 2020, 17:30
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
Abandoned? They're a very small team - and they've released a pretty significant DLC and quite a few patches.

Might be slow - and I'd agree with that, but I don't get the sense that they've abandoned it. What makes you say that?

It certainly seems to be divisive, though I've personally interacted with a few genre veterans who seem to think it's "brilliant".

Regardless, not a big concern for me, as some of my favorite games have been absolutely despised by the hivemind - especially these last few years, where I must have diverged significantly - even from other core gamers.

As I said, though, I'm not sure at this point - but the strategic layer and the added sophistication during combat are both much more to my liking from what I've played.

I do worry about long-term variety and stuff like weapon progression (both seem on the weaker side) - but those are the kinds of things that can be vastly improved with DLCs and mods.

But, ultimately, time will tell.
My main issue was how they have one enemy which can bombard you from the other side of the map on the first round of battle and one shot your entire team.

It made me stop playing. Hope they fix that in subsequent versions and I'll pick it up again.

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May 13th, 2020, 17:34
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
My main issue was how they have one enemy which can bombard you from the other side of the map on the first round of battle and one shot your entire team.

It made me stop playing. Hope they fix that in subsequent versions and I'll pick it up again.

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Just don't stand there!

That doesn't sound fun, I'd agree.

That said, it's not all that different from what happens in both modern and the original X-Coms.

I've certainly had countless encounters in those games where I was wiped out pretty much with zero chance to respond.

Doesn't happen THAT often, but it does happen - especially on the harder difficulties.

Much like real war - I think the idea was/is that death is a part of it - and sometimes you need to accept losing a mission.

No, I don't like it - but it was always an intended part of the game, AFAIK.

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May 13th, 2020, 17:41
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
Abandoned? They're a very small team - and they've released a pretty significant DLC and quite a few patches.

Might be slow - and I'd agree with that, but I don't get the sense that they've abandoned it. What makes you say that?
The slow updates are a big part, but also the Epic store exclusivity, the DLC ("adding" things that were supposed to be in the game already), all that combined look like a… "surrendering" to me.
I don't feel the love

As for the game itself, it has some great elements in it, way more freedom than the last XCOM games, but the balance is all over the place in the late game (the armor system also makes the combats awfully grindy at this point) and it really kills it for me. It's a mess.

Music is great though, the art too.
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May 13th, 2020, 17:48
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
My main issue was how they have one enemy which can bombard you from the other side of the map on the first round of battle and one shot your entire team.

It made me stop playing. Hope they fix that in subsequent versions and I'll pick it up again.

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That's exactly what made me quit the game.

Second tactical round: blam! Entire team killed or maimed by a supposed "support" unit hidden on the edge of the map.

I "accepted" two of those occurences, disastrous party wipe and failed missions and all (as a Battle bro, I'm kind of used to it), but the third time it happened I just felt cheated by the game.
Not fun.
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May 13th, 2020, 17:53
Originally Posted by Winterfart View Post
The slow updates are a big part, but also the Epic store exclusivity, the DLC ("adding" things that were supposed to be in the game already), all that combined look like a… "surrendering" to me.
I don't feel the love

As for the game itself, it has some great elements in it, way more freedom than the last XCOM games, but the balance is all over the place in the late game (the armor system also makes the combats awfully grindy at this point) and it really kills it for me. It's a mess.

Music is great though, the art too.
Ok, I can't say that's my own interpretation, but fair enough.

I'll get all the DLC for free as a backer - and I know how it goes with game development, so delays are - for me - par for the course in 90% of the games I enjoy.

I've gotten used to waiting a long time post-release before I dive into games.

I guess we'll see. I'd be quite displeased if they abandoned it before all the DLC is released.

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May 13th, 2020, 18:17
Originally Posted by Winterfart View Post
That's exactly what made me quit the game.

Second tactical round: blam! Entire team killed or maimed by a supposed "support" unit hidden on the edge of the map.

I "accepted" two of those occurences, disastrous party wipe and failed missions and all (as a Battle bro, I'm kind of used to it), but the third time it happened I just felt cheated by the game.
Not fun.
You are in luck then. Not only that the game is not abandoned but they are rebuilding this whole system from ground up. Now enemies will not get random mutations from the start that could allow them to spawn these crazy explosive Chirons early (who were by the way nerfed a bit in the meantime), but they will start weak and then at certain points get options on how to change/evolve. And this will also add to replayability as some combinations of enemy abilities will not show up in this playthrough but only in next ones.
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May 13th, 2020, 18:28
Chirons that launch worms are pretty fun to play (especially if you have some mutated dog in the team), but yeah, the explosive one… Fuck them!
It's like the game doesn't want to play with me anymore and decide to trip the chessboard.

Glad it's been reworked, but frankly I don't see myself reinstalling the Epic launcher just for this game, even enhanced.

There's sooo many games to play.
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May 13th, 2020, 18:32
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
Just don't stand there!



That doesn't sound fun, I'd agree.



That said, it's not all that different from what happens in both modern and the original X-Coms.



I've certainly had countless encounters in those games where I was wiped out pretty much with zero chance to respond.



Doesn't happen THAT often, but it does happen - especially on the harder difficulties.



Much like real war - I think the idea was/is that death is a part of it - and sometimes you need to accept losing a mission.



No, I don't like it - but it was always an intended part of the game, AFAIK.
Doesn't work that way in xcom 2 at all as far as I have seen. I don't know about the older ones.

I wouldn't mind it happening if there were any way to stop it but that creature was just ridiculous.



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May 13th, 2020, 18:34
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
You are in luck then. Not only that the game is not abandoned but they are rebuilding this whole system from ground up. Now enemies will not get random mutations from the start that could allow them to spawn these crazy explosive Chirons early (who were by the way nerfed a bit in the meantime), but they will start weak and then at certain points get options on how to change/evolve. And this will also add to replayability as some combinations of enemy abilities will not show up in this playthrough but only in next ones.
That's good to hear. Like I said I'll probably play it once it has a few of its dlc completed.

I find the rest of the game quite fun.

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May 13th, 2020, 18:39
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Doesn't work that way in xcom 2 at all as far as I have seen. I don't know about the older ones.

I wouldn't mind it happening if there were any way to stop it but that creature was just ridiculous.

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Well, I've been ambushed and wiped out several times in X-Com 2 - seemingly out of the blue.

I despiiiiiiiiise the way all enemies get a free move once a single of your guys spot a single of their guys. Absolutely atrociously bad game design - if you ask me.

Of course, you learn how to adapt eventually - and the game forces a super rigid step-by-step all-men-on-overwatch approach.

To me, that's not a lot of fun.

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May 13th, 2020, 18:59
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
Well, I've been ambushed and wiped out several times in X-Com 2 - seemingly out of the blue.

I despiiiiiiiiise the way all enemies get a free move once a single of your guys spot a single of their guys. Absolutely atrociously bad game design - if you ask me.

Of course, you learn how to adapt eventually - and the game forces a super rigid step-by-step all-men-on-overwatch approach.

To me, that's not a lot of fun.
They only get a move not an action. You don't get ambushed and killed. It simply is not possible.

Xcom 2 also has scout classes which allow you to go ahead and scout enemies so they don't see you. So there is no need to do the overwatch thing you mention at all.

It's also counter productive on harder difficulties as the timers don't allow you to do overwatch each turn or you won't finish the map.



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May 13th, 2020, 19:02
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
They only get a move not an action. You don't get ambushed and killed. It simply is not possible.

Xcom 2 also has scout classes which allow you to go ahead and scout enemies so they don't see you. So there is no need to do the overwatch thing you mention at all.

It's also counter productive on harder difficulties as the timers don't allow you to do overwatch each turn or you won't finish the map.

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You misunderstand, I didn't say they would kill you in the same turn.

Because if you've already moved your guys - and the last guy spots/gets spotted - then the enemy will have free reign the following turn, after they've had their move and ideal setup.

That's what's called an ambush in my book - and it's very possible.

You have exactly zero chance to prepare after they all get into position for their upcoming turn.

That happened to me quite a lot while playing - until I adapted.

I overcame this in nearly all missions by setting up my guys for overwatch before entering new areas - scouting their location, as I felt forced into it. If I'm not mistaken, this is even what the game itself tries to teach you during one of the tutorial missions.

Essentially, all turns end up identical - move tiny incremental steps and into the best possible cover - and then let your last guy move forward and wait for the surprise move and pray that a few shots actually connect.

That is my problem with this crappy design feature. Seriously, I think it's grade A stupid. A concession due to a simplified two-move system and poor AI.

Of course, it all comes down to individual preferences.

If you think it's fair that all enemies get a free move during your turn - when you don't as you spot THEM during theirs - then that's how we differ.

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May 13th, 2020, 19:30
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
You misunderstand, I didn't say they would kill you in the same turn.

Because if you've already moved your guys - and the last guy spots/gets spotted - then the enemy will have free reign the following turn, after they've had their move and ideal setup.

That's what's called an ambush in my book - and it's very possible.

You have exactly zero chance to prepare after they all get into position for their upcoming turn.

That happened to me quite a lot while playing - until I adapted.

I overcame this in nearly all missions by setting up my guys for overwatch before entering new areas - scouting their location, as I felt forced into it. If I'm not mistaken, this is even what the game itself tries to teach you during one of the tutorial missions.

Essentially, all turns end up identical - move tiny incremental steps and into the best possible cover - and then let your last guy move forward and wait for the surprise move and pray that a few shots actually connect.

That is my problem with this crappy design feature. Seriously, I think it's grade A stupid. A concession due to a simplified two-move system and poor AI.

Of course, it all comes down to individual preferences.

If you think it's fair that all enemies get a free move during your turn - when you don't as you spot THEM during theirs - then that's how we differ.
I understand what you mean now but the way to adapt is not to go slowly but to use scouts with the phantom ability.

I haven't played in a while but I believe rangers had it and so did the reapers for sure. This way you could find the enemy before they see you. That isn't something you seem to have figured out in the game.

If you don't make use of scouts then I think letting the enemy move makes sense because otherwise you would have 6 free shots at targets without any cover making the game way too easy.

As you say the mechanics could have been different and not pod based and they could have had an initiative mechanic but that's not something the devs did.

So based on the game's current mechanics to me it makes sense to have the enemy get a free move. If you don't use the tools available to you then I wouldn't say that is a mechanical error.


EDIT
Using scouts is essentially your free turn.
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May 13th, 2020, 19:47
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
I understand what you mean now but the way to adapt is not to go slowly but to use scouts with the phantom ability.

I haven't played in a while but I believe rangers had it and so did the reapers for sure. This way you could find the enemy before they see you. That isn't something you seem to have figured out in the game.

If you don't make use of scouts then I think letting the enemy move makes sense because otherwise you would have 6 free shots at targets without any cover making the game way too easy.

As you say the mechanics could have been different and not pod based and they could have had an initiative mechanic but that's not something the devs did.

So based on the game's current mechanics to me it makes sense to have the enemy get a free move. If you don't use the tools available to you then I wouldn't say that is a mechanical error.


EDIT
Using scouts is essentially your free turn.
I specifically made use of the tools available to me - as I beat the game quite comfortably using my own tactic, it was just boring doing the same thing over and over.

I used a Ranger on occasion as well, but it didn't feel more sensical or satisfying to me.

Enforcing methodical stealth using a specific class because of stupid and simplified concealment mechanics isn't particularly fun to me either, but sure - that's another valid tactic - no less boring to me, though.

Once you know where they are, you're still forced to prepare for them in the very same way.

Unless you could get a high-level sniper in position - but that was much later in the game.

Again, I like freedom - and I like sandbox gameplay. I don't like simplified and overly streamlined mechanics. That's just me.

The real alternative, obviously, would be to have a more active, less rigid and roaming AI - like in so many other turn-based games, including the original X-Com and Jagged Alliance 2 - to name but a few.

That way, the enemy might actually already be in cover when you encounter them - or you might actually get a chance to respond to individual enemies before they all get a move.

I'm aware that's not what the devs did and that's part of my problem with it.

I'm not sure supporting bad game design with "that's what the devs chose to do" and "just use this one tactic that makes little sense" is a very persuasive argument.

At least, to me, it sounds like you enjoy these concessions and you don't mind how little sense they're making.

That's cool - but I don't agree.

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May 13th, 2020, 20:28
Originally Posted by GlimpseDart View Post
I specifically made use of the tools available to me - as I beat the game quite comfortably using my own tactic, it was just boring doing the same thing over and over.

I used a Ranger on occasion as well, but it didn't feel more sensical or satisfying to me.

Enforcing methodical stealth using a specific class because of stupid and simplified concealment mechanics isn't particularly fun to me either, but sure - that's another valid tactic - no less boring to me, though.

Once you know where they are, you're still forced to prepare for them in the very same way.

Unless you could get a high-level sniper in position - but that was much later in the game.

Again, I like freedom - and I like sandbox gameplay. I don't like simplified and overly streamlined mechanics. That's just me.

The real alternative, obviously, would be to have a more active, less rigid and roaming AI - like in so many other turn-based games, including the original X-Com and Jagged Alliance 2 - to name but a few.

That way, the enemy might actually already be in cover when you encounter them - or you might actually get a chance to respond to individual enemies before they all get a move.

I'm aware that's not what the devs did and that's part of my problem with it.

I'm not sure supporting bad game design with "that's what the devs chose to do" and "just use this one tactic that makes little sense" is a very persuasive argument.

At least, to me, it sounds like you enjoy these concessions and you don't mind how little sense they're making.

That's cool - but I don't agree.
I think no matter what you do you end up having issues. As you say, you seem to find these flaws worse than I do and nothing we can say to each other to make me find it less fun or you more fun.

For me it's a minor nitpick and to you it's a major problem.

The way it works in phoenix point has its own flaws and other games too probably.

However my original point stands. At no point in xcom 2 is there a possibility for you to get blown to shreds from the other side of the map with nothing for you to do against it.



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