5th Edition D&D

Wizards of the Coast has announced the release of the 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/01/5th-edition-dungeons-and-dragons/

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120109

That is why we are excited to share with you that starting in Spring 2012, we will be taking this process one step further and conducting ongoing open playtests with the gaming community to gather feedback on the new iteration of the game as we develop it. With your feedback and involvement, we can make D&D better than ever. We seek to build a foundation for the long-term health and growth of D&D, one rooted in the vital traits that make D&D unique and special. We want a game that rises above differences of play styles, campaign settings, and editions, one that takes the fundamental essence of D&D and brings it to the forefront of the game. In short, we want a game that is as simple or complex as you please, its action focused on combat, intrigue, and exploration as you desire. We want a game that is unmistakably D&D, but one that can easily become your D&D, the game that you want to run and play.

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I don't get it. Is this just about making more money off the brand?

Why did they need to attempt to reinvent the wheel all those years ago instead of sticking with AD&D 2nd Edition? That's the only viable D&D ruleset IMHO.

3e, 3.5, 4e, etc. seem to be geared more toward tabletop battle simulation with miniatures rather than roleplaying.

Which edition do you prefer, and why?

I've got a soft spot in my heart for AD&D since that's what I grew up with, but I've got to admit that the whole prestige class / class enhancement structure from later editions give a lot of life to character development.

Your judgement is based on false premises. 2e could be just as irritatingly miniature heavy as 3e is, and in fact my (horrible) high school era group demanded it be. The worst part about pre-3e was that there was very little variety between character builds. A level 9 fighter is a level 9 fighter is a level 9 fighter in 2e. That's not the case with 3/.5e, 4e or Pathfinder (currently beating 4e in sales, and with a reason).

D&D/PF is as combat oriented as the DM and group push it to be. I find that having mechanics in place to play the combat out actually does much more for the game than the assumptions and making shit up that 2e entailed. There's less bickering about rules in my 3.5e games than I ever had in my 2e games and the sessions are as combat/RP heavy as the players demand.

Here's another interesting fact for you. 4e includes something called "Skill Challenges", an entire set of mechanics to resolve non-combat scenarios using character skills. http://critical-hits.com/features/skill-challenges/ If these systems are just for tabletop miniature combat, then why would they include something like this? I mean, I'm no fan of 4e in general, it's too streamlined and samey once you get into combat, but setting these mechanics out is great. I've already stolen this concept and adapted it to my current 3.5/PF hybrid game and it was a badass chase scene, let me tell you.

5e is too soon, they really should have stood behind the fans they pulled in with 4e even with the flagging sales, just for a year or two more. It's going to anger a lot of people that they're going to do a radical reconstruction as this is probably going to be. I imagine PF sales are going to pick up even more this year.

I don't really care which edition, I don't play TT D&D, but I do object to the arrogant use of 'Spring', as if everyone of importance or relevance lives in the northern hemisphere. Why can't they say something like 2nd quarter 2012 which is inclusive of both hemispheres!!

So what sort of changes, if any, would you like to see in 5e, darkling and dteowner?

I don't really care what they do with D&D 5e. I'm too invested in Pathfinder now with books and my current and future campaign. Heck, they published me in their actual paper fan magazine. It's the new D&D as far as I'm concerned. Whatever WotC does now is just an aside to the legacy they let die.

I meet a lot of people who prefer 3rd to 4th, and a lot of people who prefer 4th to 3rd. I like them both and think they are both good for different reasons. Other then internet gaming forums I rarely meet anyone who though the earlier editions were superior as a rule system, although you do find people who were nostalgic for some of the old adventures. I had some fun times in 2e and before too, but the actual rules were a poorly balanced, poorly designed mess.

As for whether this is an attempt to make more money, well they are a business afterall. But I'm still very interested to see how the rules evolve.

darkling said:

I don't really care what they do with D&D 5e. I'm too invested in Pathfinder now with books and my current and future campaign. Heck, they published me in their actual paper fan magazine. It's the new D&D as far as I'm concerned. Whatever WotC does now is just an aside to the legacy they let die.

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Can you explain some of the differences between Pathfinder and 3e/4e?

I have played with the OSRIC ruleset quite a bit, which is rather similar to AD&D 2e.

As for whether this is an attempt to make more money, well they are a business afterall. But I'm still very interested to see how the rules evolve.

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Yes, I realize they are running a business, but my intent was to ask whether there is any real need for yet another edition.

Yeah, I've read about all the fancy retro-clones I ran a Labyrinth Lord game for a few months last year. It turned into a bizarre prologue to the campaign as after the first adventure scenario everyone wanted to switch to something more current. Thus the 3.5/PF mix.

PFs biggest strength is how it streamlined the skills system. Skills were a mess in 3e, stayed a mess in 4e and it's really where the game needed the most work. Redundant duplicate skills were lumped together (search, spot, listen = perception). Most of the classes were retooled extensively in terms of their abilities. The awkward combat maneuvers in 3e like bull rush/charge/trip/etc were reworked so they work off one roll rather than a series of opposed rolls.

Basically they cleaned up the messes and smoothed some rough edges of 3.5e while keeping things 99% compatible. It's a seriously good change. The changes in PF were made after a series of public playtests and open beta rules. Exactly what WotC is doing with this 5e thing, just they did it first with 3.5e.

If you wanna look at the PF rules, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ is their nicely organized reference document. Unlike OGL d20, this set of rules is fully functional. Plus Paizo are cool enough to make all their core rulebook materials OGL and only keep the Golarion world as non-open content so their splat books are all up there too. A+ on them.

As for if there is a need for a 5e, this is likely a reaction to Pathfinder outselling 4e books last year. 4e is falling hard. Their board games and the facebook D&D board game (which is fun for a while, actually) and all that are trivializing it all more.

I've heard good things about pathfinder, it definitely sounded like they improved on 3.5. It's worth noting though that 4e did the exact same skill consolidation that pathfinder did, ie search, spot and listen were lumped into stealth. I wouldn't call 4's skill system a mess by any stretch, it's actually quite streamlined. In fact if anything, I think it's a little bit too streamlined.

If I were going to change something for 5e, I'd definitely reverse some of the overall streamlining. 4e did a great job of creating a much more balanced and workable combat system then 3e ever had, while making classes that were dull and boring to play in 3e much more fun to play in 4e. But they did so of the cost of quite a bit of flavor in class design. When essentials (which many call 4.5) came out they did a good job of restoring some of the lost flavor. But that definitely needs to be a focus for 5.0.

Yeah, 4e streamlined skills similarly. It's more about the identical mechanics between characters that is the problem for me. All the classes run exactly the same and the only differences are cosmetic.

darkling said:

If you wanna look at the PF rules, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ is their nicely organized reference document.

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Thanks very much for the link!

I had no idea Pathfinder was an open source free license game like OSRIC. I'll have to read up on these rules and look into joining a PF game.

Interesting to note that even though the ruleset is free, they are still making money hand over fist from their books.

Well I don't really agree there, a rogue in 4e plays extremely differently then a fighter, which plays extremely differently then a wizard of cleric. In fact the non spellcasting classes in 4e are far more distinct from each other then they ever were in 3e. My issue is just that even though every class plays very differently in 4e, they still gain encounter and daily powers at the same rate and have a very streamlined progression system. And even though a rogue's eye gouge and a wizard's fireball might do very different things, they still operated on the same system and it wasn't really obvious why one was a technique and one was a spell. When essentials came out they really shook things up, and made classes progress in very different ways and added more flavor powers and other interesting things. But they still had to work within the system they created so there was only so much that they could change.

darkling said:

Yeah, 4e streamlined skills similarly. It's more about the identical mechanics between characters that is the problem for me. All the classes run exactly the same and the only differences are cosmetic.

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I'm DMing a weekly Pathfinder game. We initially all got together and played 4E, but after 6 months it just wasnt gelling w/ us so we went back to 3.5. Which kinda bored us (which is why we went 4E in the first place) so to try something new we went to Pathfinder and found it quite fun. It's an improvement for sure, and we havent looked back since. It's simply 3.5 w/ some much-needed tweaks (such as simplified combat maneuvers), traditional D&D fantasy style, and easily accessible products (w/ great artwork!) and customer service.

That's right - customer service. Being for gamers, for the hobby. Something that Paizo gets so very right, while WOTC continues to flounder around in their myopic, greedy, stagnant, hardcover-bound business model. All of the Pathfinder books are available on PDF on the site, quickly, cheaply, legally. That includes modules if youre in a hurry to get a game prepped for the night. They have products from all kinds of different authors, companies, etc on their site as well. Theyre inventive, w/ an impressive line of game aids and stuff to spice your game up. Hell, you dont need to buy a thing - just read the published rules online!

Pathfinder just destroyed WOTC and their half-baked "online components" that they laughably limped out the door w/ 4E. I subscribed for 6 months and was sorely disappointed. WOTC has been transformed by their steady siphoning of allowance money via Magic:The Gathering from an RPG creator to a trading card company.

I hate 4E for a variety of reasons, i wont even really go into it. Let's just say that I (nor does anyone I know) have any desire to play a "Shardmind", or half the other ridiculous non-trad fantasy stuff they pulled out of their ass for 4E. I dont think people should have over 40 hit points at level 1 and be able to magically heal themselves left and right. I dont think heaping powers on players until they have to thumb thru a stack of cards every round to try and figure out what the hell theyre going to use this time is a good thing. Dont even get me started on Action Points, "Second Wind", or all that other bullshit that belongs in a video game - not at the table. For all the supposed "streamlining" of 4E, ill be damned if we didnt spend twice as much time looking stuff up then we ever have w/ previous editions or Pathfinder.

As far as the old school games go, we regularly have an "old school night" where we bust out the Labyrinth Lord as well. I really like it, and actually have a couple other "retro-clones" that I'm reading up on right now - Swords and Wizardry and Delving Deeper. Something to be said for straight-up easy characters w/ no frills/feats/very few powers, super dangerous dungeons and old-school monsters, and the looming spectre of death. The newer games have done so much to protect players from death, and while granted that ultimately it's the DM who's pulling those strings, still - the older games can be so wonderfully brutal. It's that tension that's fun, it's exciting. It's pretty gratifying to pull thru a couple dungeons when youve had people dying around you but you STILL pulled it off because of smart play or just the lucky roll of the dice.

There is a definite place for retro-style gaming, and I'm glad that it's made a comeback because I find it enjoyable for a rules-light yet suspense-heavy and exciting game that takes me back to what the hobby is all about. Likewise, I'm glad that the action-rpg nature of 4E has gotten WOTC a black eye, and been soundly rejected by so many.

I started playing with a what I think was a strange, hybrid version of the Basic rules (hey, I was 9!), but quickly moved on to 1st Ed AD&D and then 2E when it came out. For me 3/3.5E is the best version of the rules. I've never been able to understand the love for 2E beyond mere nostalgia. The rules were a jumbled mess, with various bits and pieces clumsily stuck onto the original converted wargame rules with very little consistency. I'd go with earlier versions if I wanted some nostalgia gaming, personally.

3E cleaned things up a lot, removed the poinless class/race restrictions that most people ignored anyway, and generally opened up more options, and didn't require miniatures any more than earlier versions of the game did. It wasn't perfect, and you had to ignore all of the pointless, money-grabbing fluff that introduced all of the ludicrous gamebreaking classes and whatnot. Pathfinder's a good evolution of this system, and would be my first choice for running a fantasy RPG if I got back into it.

D&D's become one of those subjects you just can't discuss on the internet, so I'll probably wander away from this discussion before someone with a Drizzt avatar writes a 30 page monograph on why I'm wrong.

This newsbit ties in with this matter : http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15937

That is why we are excited to share with you that starting in Spring 2012, we will be taking this process one step further and conducting ongoing open playtests with the gaming community to gather feedback on the new iteration of the game as we develop it.

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This reminds me of the current "Dungeons & Dragons Online" newsletter :

A letter from our Executive Producer, Fernando Paiz to all DDO players!

Hi Everyone!

On behalf of the DDO Team and everyone at Turbine, we hope you enjoyed a great end of 2011 holiday, and that your 2012 is off to a roaring start! DDO had another great year in 2011, and we want to thank our fans who played throughout the year and helped keep DDO going strong as one of the top F2P MMOs in the world.

We’ve had hundreds of thousands of new players join our free to play service, and DDO had another strong year of growth in 2011. We also welcomed in French and German speaking players to the Turbine service. We released a new crafting system, a new class, a new house ward, and adventure packs that added great gameplay, stories and loot to the high levels of the game! We hope you have all had the chance by now to build an Artificer character, play the new raids and try your hand at mastering the new Challenges. It all adds up to a pretty big year for DDO – but we are resolved to make 2012 even bigger.

As you may be aware, in a few weeks it will be Chinese New Year and 2012 begins the Year of the Dragon! This most popular of Chinese zodiac symbols stands for innovation, persistence, passion and leadership – all attributes that have become part of the story of DDO as well. This year we will have a fitting celebration as we have some huge plans to make this the biggest year ever for DDO!

How will 2012 be bigger than any year since our launch in 2006? The answer is pretty exciting! But I am not able to go into any details here today. Stay tuned and you should see us start rolling out some announcements by the end of the month! Then I will return to share with you more detailed plans for the year during the month of February before our anniversary. Trust me; it will be worth the wait!

In closing, let me once again wish you and your families a very Happy New Year and express our gratitude for being a part of our ongoing success that has helped us keep the game growing. We can’t wait to share more with you soon.

Happy Year of the Dragon!
-Fernando.

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Corwin said:

I don't really care which edition, I don't play TT D&D, but I do object to the arrogant use of 'Spring', as if everyone of importance or relevance lives in the northern hemisphere. Why can't they say something like 2nd quarter 2012 which is inclusive of both hemispheres!!

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I agree somehow. It's like ... "building a world-wide phenomenon" and then sticking [it] to one part of the world ...

I have played some AD&D, some D&D3.5, some Call of Cthulhu d20, some Modern d20, some Star Wars d20.

I say some, because none lasted very long due to the system. I felt that much of the problem came from no streamlining and still a rigid class system with too many classes.

I did however move over to Star Wars SAGA Edition which is is an offshoot from the development of 4e and that game I enjoy. Sure, it got flaws like any system but it's good stuff are so good that it makes up for the downsides.

The core of having as few classes as possible and then talents and multiclassing to diversify is a great improvement over earlier editions. It's also much streamlined and dynamic when it comes to the skill system. As the system grew, uses for existing skills got expanded instead of adding new skills, so each character could do more without making the game unbalanced.

Have you ever played TDE ? What do you think about it ? - And I mean table role-playing, not C-RPGs.

CountChocula said:

So what sort of changes, if any, would you like to see in 5e, darkling and dteowner?

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I'm not really the right person to answer that since I haven't played P&P in a million years. I had pretty much all the books for AD&D and a few for the expanded AD&D, but never bought any since. I think we (us geeks that played) ran one campaign in v3.0 before graduation scattered us to the winds—there was only 1 guy with the books and we spent half our time learning the new system and arguing about attacks of opportunity rather than having fun.

Most, but not all, of my experience with the later editions comes thru the prism of CRPG implementations of the rules. So while I'm OK with saying, as general thing, that the deeper character development is good, I'd be completely talking out my ass to discuss deeper game mechanics as you're asking, particularly since I have absolutely zero experience with v4.0. Sorry.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Have you ever played TDE ? What do you think about it ? - And I mean table role-playing, not C-RPGs.

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No. I doubt TDE ever reached Sweden.

In Sweden we had Drakar och Demoner (Dragons & Demons), the first edition were released as early as 1982. Up to it's fifth edition it was a regular fantasygame with a nordic twist (the world called Ereb Altor). Think regular fantasy but more snow, cold winters, rainy summers and ancient forests. It was a very popular product that got almost a hundred books, adventures, accessories and 8 boxes not counting the main rules. One issue that made it's very difficult to take the classic DoD seriously was ducks as a player race, artwork looking very similar to Donald Duck.

Recently there have been a revival of the world following an author that begun writing novels in the world. Here's svavelvinter (Sulphur Winter):


The 6th edition ("Chronopia") changed the world and was written by a guy behind the Warhammer rpg who blended Warhammer themes with the horrorgame KULT. This was so universally loathed that I know absolutely no one who like it, there are no fansites of that edition and it's barely mentioned on sites speaking about the game or the history of Swedish rpg's. It was the last edition produced by that company before it died, it remains bought up by other companies. Chronopia eventually became a miniture game, a clone of Warhammer.



7th edition, ironically called DoD6 as if Chronopia didn't even exist, was produced by another company with a new world (Trudvang). Trudvang didn't only walk back to traditional fantasy, it also had a much stronger focus on a nordic/germanic feel, even replacing orcs with trolls and other regular monsters with nordic folklore. It's themes and artwork were much inspired by the art of John Bauer. Even if it was a loved edition and reached 9th edition, the new company had to close down recently.

Here's Snösaga (the name is hard to translate, but something like "A Tale in Snow")