Dragon Age - The DLC Debate

Call me crazy, but I'm looking at this as a good thing given my buying tastes. Bioware have found a way of producing what sounds like a chunky piece of downloadable content funded entirely by transferring profits from secondary sellers to the developers themselves.

Admittedly I never get round to selling my old games and will always tend to buy direct for convenience rather than buying second hand so it might not be an ideal change for others who do, but for me it's a win-win, more money for developers and more content for me

I think the first DLC was Tales of the Luremaster which we could download for free for Icewind Dale 1 back in the ye olde Interplay days.

The fuzz over DLC now is that we have to pay for it. And you could, of course, pay for Premium Modules NWN1. However, this money paid for the servers and the patches for NWN1.

Back on topic:

Does this mean that if I buy a copy of DA: Origins in the summer of 2010 that the DLC will now be free for registered users or does this mean that I have to come up with 7 US +15 dollars = 22 dollars for the DLCs of Warden's Keep and The Stone Prisoner.

If this is the case, I can wait untill I can get the game, DA; Origins at a reduced bargain price, just like I did with Mass Effect.

It's not like the like game will be short or small even without the DLC...

Eisberg said:

They had DLC for Never Winter Nights 1. You could buy Premium modules for around $7 a piece.

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Well, I believe there's a difference between "commercial DLC" and "free DLC", which is basically free, but comes bundled with - in this case - a collector's edition.
It is not commercial in the same way as these commercial modules are.

These commercial modules - which were never translated into Germany, by the way, and never available for that market except online and non-translated, meanwhile they were - as far as I know - indeed made available on DVD for the English-speaking mass market - are only sold online - which makes them imho much similar to online buying of games like by Steam or Direct 2 Drive, for example.

The DLC in the Collector's Edition isn't sold individually, and therefore must be differenciated from the "commercial DLC".

aries100 said:

I think the first DLC was Tales of the Luremaster which we could download for free for Icewind Dale 1 back in the ye olde Interplay days.

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It shipped much later translated into German language with an Icewind Dale I kind of Collector's Edition on I think it was 3 CDs or 4. I have such a specimen.

In which Interplay has been different in regard compared to EA or whoever is responsible for the commercial NWN1 modules, which can be found on DVD in the Diamond Edition of NWN, if I recall this correctly.

Edit : Just saw at www.amazon.com that Atari sells the Diamond Edition ... Which is interesting, because they are also the responsible publisher for Germany ...

The reason this attracts so much attention is indeed the timing. If a company is selling some "bonus" content on day zero right along side the release of the game, it takes a very trusting soul to resist the conclusion that a buyer is just being arbitrarily charged MORE money for one particular chunk of the game when the rest of the game is included in the purchase price.

I hope it's obvious that in a CRPG, there is (and should be) tons of "completely optional" content included in the purchase price. So to take the position that Bioware is only responsible for selling us the very core of the game system and the main quest at full retail price, and has every right to sell all optional content (sidequests? crafting system? NPCs?) a la cart for extra... is to really embrace a whole new paradigm for CRPG sales, and in that paradigm we buyers get the short, short end of the stick. CRPGs are all about the extras!

Of course, this is not such an extreme situation. However the responses I'm seeing defending what Bioware is up to also could be used to defend that extreme a la cart approach. We all know that companies are in business to make the largest profits they possibly can. But as consumers it behooves us to growl at them when they look like they're crossing a line. And zero-day DLC is very suspicious.

Isn't the time, effort, and money put into making a product supposed to correlate with the price of the product. That is normally how it works and what if this game has 100 hours of content without the dlc isn't that enough to correlate with the price they are charging for the product. If that isn't enough then I guess you should be complaining about all of the games that don't give 100 hours of content.

PS. If a game has enough content to justify the price paid for it then I would only judge the dlcs made for that game by the same reasoning. Did that dlc bring enough content to justify the price.

PPS. I think a game giving you 100 hours of content justifies a $50 price tag since you are getting far more then $50 worth of content.

PPPS. I estimated the hours based on the average length of modern rpgs combined with Bioware saying they added a lot of content during the delay.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that people would probably stop buying the games if they did something like separating out all side quests and non-essential areas and selling them them individually while keeping the $50 price tag.

I just remembered the bonus vendors of BG2. It wasn't DLC, but some kind of spiritual precursor to it, so to say ...

I can't help but wonder why nobody's looking at this from a logistics point of view.

1) When the cycle of creating a game starts, there are a lot of people with grand ideas for gameplay concepts and all the hows and whats and whatnots, who all pile their ideas into a great big pile.

2) Next the more level headed people takes that big pile of ideas and start the weeding process where the most outrageous or disjointed ideas are tossed aside and only the seemingly possible ideas and concepts are left. The flow of the game is being determined and at the end of the process, the game goes into Alpha state or "feature lock".

3) Next the level designers and engine coders work on implementing the game and along the way a bit of content might change (certain areas may be cut, expanded or otherwise changed for various reasons though most commonly to keep a certain pace to the flow of the game). When the game reaches Beta stage, the game is essentially finished and the entire focus is on QA and bug fixing.

4) And finally the game goes gold and the code is handed over to the printing press.

Now there are of course numerous sub levels of each of the 4 major points listed above but that is irrelevant. The point is that each time a milestone is reached and the development moves into a new phase a lot of people will be done and ready to move on the next project (the content creators are seldom the same people who does the engine coding). A high profile game like Dragon Age reaches the Alpha stage years before launch and all that time, if given the opportunity, the content creators can create tons of new content, especially now that the limits of what can and what can not be done in this particular game are a lot better defined than it was initially.

When the game reaches Beta and the level designers stop creating new levels/areas, if given the opportunity, can begin implementing the new content, especially now that tons of meshes, objects and models have already been created for the game.

And the list goes on. Instead of reassigning everyone to different projects the minute their particular task on a particular project is over, a portion of them could stay on the project and try to find a way to get that great idea that was cut at the last moment to everyone's dismay into the game after all. Or come up with new ways to use a particular gameplay element that turned out better than expected. Or try something completely new.

This whole notion that developers are trying to sell you an empty wardrobe only to have you pay for the clothes separately afterwards is a bit paranoid (at least at this point in time it is). Yes, the suspiciously locked door in the middle of the Mage Guild in Oblivion that turned out to be the entrance to the Orrery DLC did indeed reek of being left out of the main game deliberately but the addition of the Orrery DLC had no impact on the game whatsoever. In fact the one specially added feature that has annoyed me the most was the pre-order bonus merchant in Baldur's Gate 2 that had the best sling in the game.

Other than the bonus merchant (which was not a DLC), the only issue I have had with DLC's is that a few have felt a bit overpriced, but such is the nature of any consumer product that somehow didn't live up to your expectations. I could just have refrained from buying it.

fatBastard() said:

I can't help but wonder why nobody's looking at this from a logistics point of view.

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Indeed that's what's several of us have been saying from the start, including Bioware.

fatBastard you make a very good point...mostly. The thing is it's not an entirely iterative process. The coders are hard at work long before the design of game is completed, the engine (as long as it meets defined parameters) is not dependent on the design. The engine guys don't care what the levels look like, those get imported near the end. Certainly the designers are still hard at work making end content usually through most of the beta phase ( this is one of the reasons betas are typically only early levels, missing units or abilities, etc ).

To use everyone's favorite Fallout as an example the SPECIAL system was slapped in at the very end (days before gold) after the GURPS license fell through.

Usually the only people to move on from a project as it nears completion are the idea guys. Most development teams keep the designers busy during the bug squashing phase to fit in those last few sounds or improving/adding details to levels or cleaning up animations.

Bioware has said it's an entirely different design team making the DLC working in parallel to the main designers who have been working on base game up until the end.

@fatBastard

It's called an "expansion". Google it.

DLC's are nothing but bastardized versions of expansions, smaller, crappier and worse, they kill the expansions in favour of DLC's charged randomly.

I like how Obsidian still released NwN2 expansions, full blown enhancements or additions in one pack rather than sell you bits and pieces of that package over time with unchecked prices to boot.

What is hilarious is that fanboys blindly believing everything BioWare says. This is the same company that bought Jade Empire to PC after ages, with no worthy addition that too (really, the game was terrible) and the same company that first advertised Dragon Age as a PC only game to stand out from the crowd of developers leaving PC scene. They knew saying this game will be PC only (later, PC first, consoles later.. now, all platforms at the same time) will bring them good publicity on all PC gaming sites.

Now we are getting a watered down port, that is being advertised as BG successor (yeah right) which according to everyone that has seen doesn't even look graphically superior on PC compared to consoles (which means, prepare for blurry texture overload and performance issues).

Hell, the Mass Effect DLC should be the enough reason for anyone to hate this move. It seems their PR department was working day and night feeding the press on how there were sooooo many features already added and how soooooooooooo many were left which they could only add through DLC. How much are you all willing to bet that this game won't have anything revolutionary? Same stuff we have seen, only done with higher budget. That's what we are getting.

I am actually glad that it is coming out against brilliant releases like RISEN and Divinity 2 so I can finally compare this hype-fest against those games which were ignored by western media until release.

I think you're being too cynical. Is it honestly worth getting a little hype on the PC scene, while missing out on all that console marketing you could have been doing all along? That belies credulity, so therefore it's probably wrong. I'm sure they expected a console release at some point but I'm also sure it started as a genuine PC-first.

As for "watered down" — what exactly have they "watered down" in this "port". There are things I would change but you imply the original vision has been compromised. Such as?

As an aside, I pretty much ignore any post with "fanboy" in it. Not agreeing with one argument doesn't automatically make one a fanboy for the opposite side.

Dhruin said:

I think you're being too cynical. Is it honestly worth getting a little hype on the PC scene, while missing out on all that console marketing you could have been doing all along? That belies credulity, so therefore it's probably wrong. I'm sure they expected a console release at some point but I'm also sure it started as a genuine PC-first.

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I am also sure it was planned for console release and they just wanted more hype. What better way to hype up a new game than telling the bigger fanbase on consoles that they won't be getting the new game unlike Jade Empire and Mass Effect?

My guess is that you didn't read their forums when "PC only/first" bit was being hyped around. So many threads by console gamers asking why BioWare was "betraying" their biggest fanbase and the community which made them what they are.. it was hilarious, but most of us knew that this won't last long.

But we get to have top-down cam, oh boy. Toolset to (if you like playing amateur campaigns) but that doesn't really matter to most of us in the end.

Also, calling someone a fanboy is a must during any debate (esp. when they are busy defending a fraking DLC which isn't FREE of all the things). Most console gamers hate the fact that PC gamers end up getting these lame DLC's in the game down the road or just for free, the reason why so many of them whine about developers not charging us. Hell if I was one of them, I would go around posting everywhere this game comes up on how as a "PC gamer" I will gladly pay for such addons because they are truly a gift from heaven or something..




PS: I am OK with expansions. What I am NOT ok is when developers take one expansion, cut it into 5 different pieces and sell those pieces as DLC's worth 5-10 bucks each (which ends up as us being overchareged, it's not like anyone's keeping track). On the other hand, if this DLC gives at least 5 hrs worth of game, I am willing to pay for it.. something what Bethesda did right with Fallout 3 (and the expansion for Oblivion even, they actually learned from their mistakes).

If BioWare isn't going to be selling armors and new skins in their DLC's and instead provides proper playable campaigns, I am ok with that as well (but it sounds like they want to add small random side quests you sometime ignore when you have important quests to do). Lets wait and see then.

ortucis said:

I am also sure it was planned for console release and they just wanted more hype. What better way to hype up a new game than telling the bigger fanbase on consoles that they won't be getting the new game unlike Jade Empire and Mass Effect?

My guess is that you didn't read their forums when "PC only/first" bit was being hyped around. So many threads by console gamers asking why BioWare was "betraying" their biggest fanbase and the community which made them what they are.. it was hilarious, but most of us knew that this won't last long.

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I can give you a million better ways to hype a game. You're fooling yourself if some BioWare forum posters in a twist (who are already fans) is worth a fraction of the potential console market who wouldn't have known the game existed, because Bio wasn't sending any marketing their way.

You didn't answer what was watered down with the PC "port", by the way.

I hope that they produce genuine expansions rather than a series of small & overpriced DLC, I'll play the game & whatever's available in additional content up to the point where I finish the first playthrough but would like a big expansion to draw me back in 6 months after release say.

Although at this stage I'm happier that they're producing day 1 content for my first playthrough rather than dedicating the resources to longer term projects

Dhruin said:

You didn't answer what was watered down with the PC "port", by the way.

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Read my third post again. I mentioned something about graphics (actually, looking at screenshots and videos is enough if you miss the words).

Might wanna pay attention to the interviews and previews you guys post yourself. Unless of course you will next ask me to point you to the right direction, kinda pointless debating if the only thing you can come up with is "you are cynical", "I can give a million ways to hype a game (while ignoring the one I am talking about.. what has that got to do with your million ways?)".

Lets just move on then. I'll forward my opinion to the nearest brick wall, same thing.

LuckyCarbon said:

fatBastard you make a very good point…mostly. The thing is it's not an entirely iterative process. The coders are hard at work long before the design of game is completed, the engine (as long as it meets defined parameters) is not dependent on the design. The engine guys don't care what the levels look like, those get imported near the end. Certainly the designers are still hard at work making end content usually through most of the beta phase ( this is one of the reasons betas are typically only early levels, missing units or abilities, etc ).

To use everyone's favorite Fallout as an example the SPECIAL system was slapped in at the very end (days before gold) after the GURPS license fell through.

Usually the only people to move on from a project as it nears completion are the idea guys. Most development teams keep the designers busy during the bug squashing phase to fit in those last few sounds or improving/adding details to levels or cleaning up animations.

Bioware has said it's an entirely different design team making the DLC working in parallel to the main designers who have been working on base game up until the end.

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It is indeed true that the people doing the actual coding are busy throughout the entire project and often beyond gold status (working on patches etc), but once the feature lock sets in, the content creators are free to start new projects or start looking at ideas for possible DLCs. The initial gigantic hurdle of creating all the art work for a whole game will also be only a minor issue later on with likely 90% or more of the required art work/engine mechanics for any given DLC already having been created earlier on.

ortucis said:

@fatBastard

It's called an "expansion". Google it.

DLC's are nothing but bastardized versions of expansions, smaller, crappier and worse, they kill the expansions in favour of DLC's charged randomly.

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Yes yes, and back in my day you had to actually DIAL a number on a telephone not press buttons … and forget about mobile phones.

With the rise of the consoles the old fashioned "PC Expansion Pack" has become more or less obsolete, due to the "must play right off the disc" approach to gaming accessibility on consoles, making the "must have original game installed on HD to play" approach to PC Expansion packs unfeasible. Now, you can rant and rave all you like about how the old ways was much better and how the consoles are ruining it for the PC, but that doesn't change the fact that the console gaming market is MUCH bigger now than the PC market and Dragon Age *IS* a multi-platform title, so ANY addition to the game will be in the form of either a sequel or DLCs. End of story.

ortucis said:

Read my third post again. I mentioned something about graphics (actually, looking at screenshots and videos is enough if you miss the words).

Might wanna pay attention to the interviews and previews you guys post yourself. Unless of course you will next ask me to point you to the right direction, kinda pointless debating if the only thing you can come up with is "you are cynical", "I can give a million ways to hype a game (while ignoring the one I am talking about.. what has that got to do with your million ways?)".

Lets just move on then. I'll forward my opinion to the nearest brick wall, same thing.

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Try putting the "let's move on" after the insult next time if you really want to let something go.

What's to debate??

Look, the game comes out in a couple of weeks. You know what's in it. Is it worth it to you? If yes, buy it. If not, don't. Or maybe sit on your hands and see if the price comes down - which it may or may not. As the DLC comes out, do the same thing. Is it worth it or is it not?

So what is all this tripe about "oh they SHOULD be giving us such & such?" Bull. If you think the game isn't worth the price unless this extra content is tossed in then fine, don't buy the game. Honestly, this sounds to me like somebody who's ordered a pizza and is now demanding double toppings be added for free because the pizza place already has the toppings ready.

(Now, if they were pulling something like making the game nearly impossible to complete without paying them another $20, then you would have some good reasons to yell.)

aries100 said:

I think the first DLC was Tales of the Luremaster which we could download for free for Icewind Dale 1 back in the ye olde Interplay days.

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Just to be clear, that was NOT DLC in the modern context ... it is a 'free add-on', like Sacred Gold add-on.