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December 31st, 2018, 03:29
Very glad to hear you are enjoying Kingmaker @wolfgrimdark !

Well, everyone has different preferences so it's natural that some will enjoy kingdom management more than others - but I wish people will give this gem a try since there are plenty of other enjoyable elements.

Love all those things you listed in the spoiler tag, wolf!

Spoiler
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December 31st, 2018, 10:14
There's a prologue and 8 in game chapters, the 8th is optional and has requirements to be opened.

No matter how good is the game before last two chapters, those last two chapters cumulate non sense boredom designs. I can't understand how good designers could have end with that.

It's not changing that prologue and first 6 in game chapters are from far the best party RPG I played since long, let say DAO, and despite the ton of glitches still in game when I played it.

Still overall, because of last two chapters quite unbearable, it feels more like one more missed opportunity for increasing fame an interest in party RPG, and one more clue of the curse upon party RPG even if this curse/disease is more severe for party RPG with turn based combats.

One more party RPG I can't quote as an example to pinpoint how the subgenre is great.

EDIT:
There are recent party RPG I enjoyed more than DAO, but mostly all screwed some significant aspects so they can't attract much more players to party RPG.

Or they are small RPG so they play in a different category. Bigger RPG have to face another problem, how fill the world without have an exponential budget.
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December 31st, 2018, 12:34
Originally Posted by TheRealFluent View Post
I'm just a little disappointed to see people not enjoying the kingdom management so much. It's really not hard to do, you just have to use your time wisely - you're not always stuck waiting for events or anything. Go out, adventure, have fun, and come back and take care of business at the moment. It becomes second nature once you've played a bunch (I have 500 hours on Steam and this is my 2nd run). In my first run I botched kingdom management bad because I thought I needed to stay at the kingdom at all times and felt afraid to adventure. That's not the case at all though, you can explore the entire map and still have fun doing kingdom management. But I digress. Just was hoping to see more enthused by it because it's something new in a CRPG that is this deep and adds another layer of interest to the game. Have a very deep and complex party-based CRPG and also a deep kingdom sim, it's a very good combination IMO.
The biggest problem with it are slow loading screens combined with too much kingdom management that is mostly pointless as it only raises kingdom stats which is just busy work without any real meaning.

If loading screens would last up to 5s than that busy work would not be as irritating but as it is now, it is very irritating.
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December 31st, 2018, 12:46
Thanks for the review. I'm waiting, however, for the next Patch until I start this game.
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December 31st, 2018, 20:10
I didnt finish the game yet so I dont have my own experience of last chapters. But bugs aside, I think many developers had troubles to design endgame content. Even such classics like BG2 or DA:O had troubles at this department. And for example PoE had also quite underwhelming finale IMHO. Just trying to put it into perspective.
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December 31st, 2018, 20:14
I find that endings are even harder to pull off for very long games.

Games that are 100+ hours long must be incredibly hard to pace properly. They have to take all sorts of permutations into account, and I've found that a lot of CRPG developers seem to be very afraid of the end sequences being too easy.

So, they tend to overdo it a little. I've seen this many, many times in my gaming life.

It always pissed me off a little, because I actually enjoy the occasional pushover ending. I mean, I worked for all those hours to get super powerful and optimal, and then they go and change the final 5-10% of the game completely, usually breaking all sorts of established balancing and clearly communicated rules.

It's like a little mini-betrayal in that way, I find.

But maybe I'm in the minority. I know there are people who love that kind of over-the-top challenge at the end-game.

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December 31st, 2018, 20:14
I agree with @Archangel that loading times hurt the game in the kingdom management. They should fix that and I think they are with 1.2. But I am patient and still enjoyed it greatly. I love receiving gifts from my loyal artisans and solving tough problems presented.
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December 31st, 2018, 20:15
Have they announced any changes to the end chapters? As in, do they - themselves - agree they're not balanced well?

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January 1st, 2019, 00:55
No plans to change the end chapters as far as I know - which is a shame

But I'm sure they are aware of the issue. Do you know how many people have been complaining about the ending at Owlcat forums?
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Last edited by purpleblob; January 1st, 2019 at 01:27.
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January 1st, 2019, 15:35
I am actually surprised myself at people's reaction to the kingdom building here. I find it extremely well done. I have played a few kingdom building games (both SIM and strategy style as well as those tossed into an RPG) and this is by far the best I have ever seen. DAI had some Keep building but nothing like this.

I love, again, the attention to detail, in what goes on with the Kingdom. Not only that but they integrate the Kingdom SIM stuff so perfectly with the questing and exploring that the two seem completely natural and as one.

Ah well not for everyone .. .although there again they accounted for that with the auto-pilot feature for the Kingdom … but I am loving it more and more. it is simply fun to be able to run your own kingdom and also have all these CC's related to it and even getting to choose its alignment and basic guiding principles on how it will be run based on your choices.

Fun stuff indeed

As for difficulty - nah I just find playing on very hard difficulties to be to masochistic myself. I don't like or enjoy tons of long drawn out combat. Especially ones where you have to spend so much time buffing before each one. In all the games I have played the only game I ever played on its hardest mode is FO4, which I really enjoy for some odd reason. Even Baldurs Gate I played on normal or possibly the one step above it (can't remember) even after a half-dozen times.
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January 2nd, 2019, 20:31
This game is second-tier and it honestly shows from the very basic looking character models to the lack-luster animations (running looks…painful, attacking motions are choppy and have no dynamism). It's a step back from the actual clang of blades and parrying you'd see in NWN1…anyhow.

I found myself comparing this to Tyranny. Tyranny's better in many regards. PF:KM feels ..ten year late to the Black Isle party, and fails to capture any lasting engagement or engender any interest in its story. Partly I think the writing is quite lacking (maybe it's because the dev's aren't English..?) and the kingdom management feels shoe-horned and needlessly intrusive.

I decided to treat this just like a series of set-piece battles interspersed with random encounters and that attitude makes the game more tolerable. But having playing PnP PF and D&D there's precious little motivating me to keep playing except I've started and sunk many hours into it, and once I can cross it off my list I can move onto something more enjoyable. I went expecting NWN2: MoTB or at PoE-2 quality…and got something far less.

To say nothing of the frustrating random bugs/broken questlines I've encountered, despite all the people insisting "it's been playable for a whole month now!". Ugh.

I have a feeling that I had waited like a year for this to go on a significant sale, it would be a much better experience. Not a $40 game, more like a $15-20 one.
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January 2nd, 2019, 21:10
Originally Posted by Dhraiden View Post
This game is second-tier and it honestly shows from the very basic looking character models to the lack-luster animations (running looks…painful, attacking motions are choppy and have no dynamism). It's a step back from the actual clang of blades and parrying you'd see in NWN1…anyhow.

I found myself comparing this to Tyranny. Tyranny's better in many regards. PF:KM feels ..ten year late to the Black Isle party, and fails to capture any lasting engagement or engender any interest in its story. Partly I think the writing is quite lacking (maybe it's because the dev's aren't English..?) and the kingdom management feels shoe-horned and needlessly intrusive.

I decided to treat this just like a series of set-piece battles interspersed with random encounters and that attitude makes the game more tolerable. But having playing PnP PF and D&D there's precious little motivating me to keep playing except I've started and sunk many hours into it, and once I can cross it off my list I can move onto something more enjoyable. I went expecting NWN2: MoTB or at PoE-2 quality…and got something far less.

To say nothing of the frustrating random bugs/broken questlines I've encountered, despite all the people insisting "it's been playable for a whole month now!". Ugh.

I have a feeling that I had waited like a year for this to go on a significant sale, it would be a much better experience. Not a $40 game, more like a $15-20 one.
Have to disagree with you. I loved the character model and animation, and found the writing excellent. Sounds like you had a terrible luck with bugs - which I'm really sorry to hear. I paid $120 for the early tier access and got over 340 hours of fun, so it was totally worth it for me.

I enjoyed Kingmaker far more than MotB. Everyone has different opinion so we can agree to disagree. However, since you bought the game already, maybe give it another go when all planned DLCs are out and fully patched out. I honestly believe this game is a (flawed) gem and there are many others who also found the game excellent.
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January 2nd, 2019, 21:11
Lol Tyranny and PoE having better story and writing. Joke of the year and year has only started.
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January 2nd, 2019, 21:14
From TechQuila's Best Game List.
Loyal cult following who will defend the game with everything they’ve got.
That loyal cult following is 100% correct.
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January 2nd, 2019, 22:21
Nothing wrong with sharing opinion of the game people enjoy
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January 2nd, 2019, 23:22
Originally Posted by Dhraiden View Post
This game is second-tier and it honestly shows from the very basic looking character models to the lack-luster animations (running looks…painful, attacking motions are choppy and have no dynamism). It's a step back from the actual clang of blades and parrying you'd see in NWN1…anyhow.

I found myself comparing this to Tyranny. Tyranny's better in many regards. PF:KM feels ..ten year late to the Black Isle party, and fails to capture any lasting engagement or engender any interest in its story. Partly I think the writing is quite lacking (maybe it's because the dev's aren't English..?) and the kingdom management feels shoe-horned and needlessly intrusive.

I decided to treat this just like a series of set-piece battles interspersed with random encounters and that attitude makes the game more tolerable. But having playing PnP PF and D&D there's precious little motivating me to keep playing except I've started and sunk many hours into it, and once I can cross it off my list I can move onto something more enjoyable. I went expecting NWN2: MoTB or at PoE-2 quality…and got something far less.

To say nothing of the frustrating random bugs/broken questlines I've encountered, despite all the people insisting "it's been playable for a whole month now!". Ugh.

I have a feeling that I had waited like a year for this to go on a significant sale, it would be a much better experience. Not a $40 game, more like a $15-20 one.
During 180 hours I spent with the game I identified several more or less serious problems but these are not in the visual or writing departments. I also strongly disagree with statement that Kingmaker is overpriced, budget tier game. One has to wonder how two people, looking at the same thing can get so diametrically different perception of reality.
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January 2nd, 2019, 23:50
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
During 180 hours I spent with the game I identified several more or less serious problems but these are not in the visual or writing departments. I also strongly disagree with statement that Kingmaker is overpriced, budget tier game. One has to wonder how two people, looking at the same thing can get so diametrically different perception of reality.
I extensively beta tested Kingmaker and reported well in excess of 80+ bugs, almost exclusively related to rule-set implementation errors. This excludes the intentional deviations that Owlcat made i.e. AoO being a automatic concentration check etc. None of the bugs I raised were related to visual or audio related issues as I just don't care about graphical glitches although I remember encountering a few of these. The sad thing is only about 15 of these bugs have actually been fixed.

I also believe the game is actually overpriced in it's current state. The production values (mostly quality) are nowhere near at Divinity Original Sin 2 or Pillars Deadfire level. The base game + season pass comes to $67 (this is my local currency not USD) versus $62 dollars for Deadfire + season pass!! This price variation is even more severe when you consider Deadfire has been on sale for 50% off.
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January 2nd, 2019, 23:55
No one is saying the game is bug free, especially at the beta stage.

In terms of price, Kingmaker is a lot longer than Deadfire. When you say "production value" you are purely talking about the polish only - as I mentioned, I had over 340 hours of fun, and that certainly justifies the price for me.

I mentioned this before - I prefer fun and less polished game vs boring but more polished. So while you may find the game overpriced, I found it one of the best valued game ever despite the bugs.

EDIT: When was Deadfire on sale for 50% off? I never saw that - was going to pick it up when it is ~$30 AUD (I think it's just under $60 AUD full price) which never happened as far as I know.
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January 3rd, 2019, 00:15
Overpriced? That's the funniest thing I've heard all year so far. Do you realize how much content is already in the base game? Plus more coming with DLC? The game has TONS of content and is a multiple hundreds hour game, especially counting re-plays. The game is worth every penny and more in my humble opinion.
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January 3rd, 2019, 00:45
Don't get me confused I do like the game and almost certainly put more money onto Kingmaker than both of you combined (and probably then some). However that doesn't mean I can't comparatively say that if you consider Original Sin 2 (which is longer than Kingmaker - at least for me it was) and Deadfire that it is poor value for money.

And don't even get my started on the quality of the physical copies. I'm going to post a photo so you can see what I mean here. Please wait and see, it is laughable when you compare them side by side.

Deadfire has currently sold significantly more copies as Kingmaker (just considering Steam) and based on Steam reviews + metacritic and any other review site out there it is significantly more fun. Original Sin 2 has sold more than 10x as many copies and vastly better reviews. It is overpriced when you compare it too what else is in the market currently, that is before you even compare the quality of the product. Kingmaker has more bugs than both Deadfire and Original Sin 2 combined.
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Last edited by bjon045; January 3rd, 2019 at 00:55.
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