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View Poll Results - Favourite drink while playing a game?

1. Beer 7 17.07%
2. Wine 1 2.44%
3. Liquor (alc. > 35%) 0 0%
4. Soft drink 8 19.51%
5. Energy drink 1 2.44%
6. Juice 0 0%
7. Hot chocolate 0 0%
8. Coffee 7 17.07%
9. Tea 6 14.63%
10. Water 11 26.83%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

Default Favourite drink while playing?

March 6th, 2019, 11:12
Depends on the situation. If it's tabletop games with friends, beer it is! If it's gaming on PC until late at night, either tea or water! Gotta stay hydrated after all!
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March 6th, 2019, 11:43
Originally Posted by Arkadia7 View Post
I like what Eye had to say in some of her points. I think its healthy to question everything. Yes, even things that are considered sacred cows or that might be disturbing to other people. The more someone tells me something is beyond question, the more I tend to want to question it.
Well, to borrow a phrase, it's good to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.
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March 6th, 2019, 13:07
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Rippers first post on that matter, #87, was in response to a link to that forum, not a specific source or study. I dont really see anything wrong with his objection. Everyone can make up his own mind about that place.

Also, not everyone knows how to seperate actual information from all the chaff that floats around on the web. Similarly, not all people seem able to spot a ponzi scheme or other types of (seemingly) obvious frauds.

Another point I disagree to is the idea that no harm could possibly come from this. Even dietary advice may be dangerous, e.g., if there is some unknown precondition, or if the advice is sufficiently extreme. But that's not the only thing. I strongly disagree with the idea that some pseudo-science is OK, if no physical harm is done. Spreading pseudo-science decreases people's ability to distinguish it from research that is actually going through reasonable scientific processes. It's not so much of a physical harm as a harm to society. Next thing you know, everyone is a "climate sceptic" and no one is vaccinating against the measles anymore.
Though I understand your concerns I think the net just reflects how people are and have always operated.
To refer everyone who is asking for advice to an expert (#113) is over the top.
If your neighbour asks you something about lice in the garden, do you refer him to a professional gardener or do you just give him some tips you have picked up that you have applied yourself? If your brother asks you about the annual tax declaration, do you point him to Deloitte or Ernst & Young? People like to help. They do it and have been doing just that all the time off line.

To have to take into account someone has an unknown precondition when giving dietary advice… that means you also can not exchange recipes? Someone might have an unknown allergy problem. Whose responsibility is it?
And what’s “sufficiently extreme”? Vurts remark that he himself does not drink too much tea? Or when asked about it, his remark he does not know that much about it but that he got it from a forum and advises to do a search there? Or his remark that the particular forum is Longecity?

To oppose every pseudo-scientific forum or advice given with no scientific claims explained by an expert that meets your own standards, makes your audience only less receptive for your well meant warnings. You might even increase any suspicion already present in the critics towards science: ‘o, here we go again, here is another one telling us what to do and what to think, trying to manipulate us, to make us the way THEY prefer’.

That patriarchal desire that seems to be present in certain parts of society nowadays, to keep everybody away from danger and on the ‘right’ path might turn out to be rather damaging. People need room to make their own choices, and their own mistakes.

I say pick your battles.
Just because there is ISIS and Scientology and there is no proof of the existence of God, you are not going to point out to every believer in God who speaks of the benefits s/he experiences, that it can be quite dangerous to set a foot on that path of believing in God?

Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Indeed, and if I was a bit more aggressive in my approach in my earlier posts, it's because I came in and saw that Sakichop was concerned about a specific claim, in relation to a real kidney condition, and he was pointed to the life eternal forum, to which my reaction was, "Oh, you have got to be fucking kidding!"
Vurt was answering to Sakichops concern. Sakichop already did a research, could not find anything apart from stuff dealing with China, and wanted to know specifics. Vurt acknowledged he did not know much about it, he told Sakichop where he had read it, and advised to do a search himself looking for postings and studies overthere.

You apparently assumed that Sakichop can not decide for himself whether it is a good or a bad thing to follow that advice, or to follow the advice of people on Longecity, or to try and interpret the studies mentioned there.

If you do not think highly of peoples ability to think for themselves about what’s good for them, then why do you think they’ll listen to your warnings?

———-
@sakichop ‘tea’ and ‘contamination’ might get you somewhere as well. In the past I have been in contact with a producer of organic supplements. I know they stopped producing a green tea supplement because they simply could not get their hands on a green tea that met their requirements. Apparently even the unsprayed tea plant takes up unwanted stuff: from the soil.
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March 6th, 2019, 14:17
It's all about poor ripper feeling he's lost his little "internet battle" and when that happens it gets.. weird. To say the least. The argument that this is some kind of rocket science (to read up about the content in tea), doesn't hold up. It's not what it's about, clearly. Neither is it about him "caring". lol.

Just looks at previous threads and you will find this rather peculiar behavior there as well.

Anyways, i'm not gonna spend more time with this, it's just too dumb, bordering into scary almost.
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March 6th, 2019, 14:54
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
It's all about poor ripper feeling he's lost his little "internet battle" and when that happens it gets.. weird. To say the least. The argument that this is some kind of rocket science (to read up about the content in tea), doesn't hold up. It's not what it's about, clearly. Neither is it about him "caring". lol.

Just looks at previous threads and you will find this rather peculiar behavior there as well.

Anyways, i'm not gonna spend more time with this, it's just too dumb, bordering into scary almost.
LOL. Well, if you actually imagine this exchange has gone well for you, I'm afraid that's further evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect that leads you to your faulty evaluation of health data. Perhaps up the dosage of the nootropics, or organic supplements?

John Cleese explains.

loading…
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March 6th, 2019, 15:51
What on earth happened to this thread, lol.
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March 6th, 2019, 16:01
Originally Posted by Carnifex View Post
What on earth happened to this thread, lol.
He besmirched the good name of tea - what did you expect!
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March 6th, 2019, 16:24
Water. I used to drink fruitjuice or cola but the toll on the teeth was too much, even with good brushing. As the dentist says, it's not necessarily what you drink, but how you drink it. When you game and drink you tend to sip regularly rather than down a glass in one & it's the amount of attacks your teeth get in a day rather than the fact that they get attacks. So if you sip while playing a game, like take one mouthful every half an hour, then your teeth are being attacked 10 times in a 5 hour play window. If you played for 2.5 hours then downed a whole glass of fruit/soda it's still only one attack even though you drank the same amount of liquid.

I find water ok, but the problem is that it's regularly not satisfying enough. The liquid version of always eating dry bread with nothing on it. It does the job but does nothing for morale.
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March 6th, 2019, 16:51
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
LOL. Well, if you actually imagine this exchange has gone well for you, I'm afraid that's further evidence of the Dunning-Kruger effect that leads you to your faulty evaluation of health data. Perhaps up the dosage of the nootropics, or organic supplements?

John Cleese explains.
Yes, I have noticed you mentioning that Dunning-Kruger effect quite often: whenever you think somebody is ignorant of something. You seem to use it to put the other down, complacent that YOU know better and are not in the dark.

Which is funny:

An expert on human blind spots gives advice on how to think,
how to fight the Dunning-Kruger effect, explained by psychologist David Dunning.
(@vox):
Brian Resnick:
Something that I think is both funny and instructive about your work is that people often get the Dunning-Kruger effect wrong, and take away the wrong conclusions from it. Do you see that a lot?
[…]
David Dunning:
Yes. The answer is yes.

The work is about [how] when people don’t get it, they don’t realize they don’t get it. And so the fact that people don’t get the work in major ways is a delicious irony, but also terrific confirmation.

But there are a couple things that people get wrong that are major.

The first is they think it’s about them [i.e., others]. That is, there are those people out there who are stupid and don’t realize they are stupid.

Now, those people may exist, and the work isn’t about that. It’s about the fact that this is a phenomenon that visits all of us sooner or later.

[…]
The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.
[…]
Ask yourself where you could be wrong if the decision is an important one. Or how can your plans end up in disaster?

Think that through — it matters. Think about what you don’t know. That is, check your assumptions.[…]
What the Dunning-Kruger effect is and isn’t (@ talyarkoni)
So the bias is definitively not that incompetent people think they’re better than competent people. Rather, it’s that incompetent people think they’re much better than they actually are. But they typically still don’t think they’re quite as good as people who, you know, actually are good.
[…]
What should we conclude from these (and other) studies? I think the jury’s still out to some extent, but at minimum, I think it’s clear that much of the Dunning-Kruger effect reflects either statistical artifact (regression to the mean), or much more general cognitive biases (the tendency to self-enhance and/or to use one’s subjective experience as a guide to one’s standing in relation to others). This doesn’t mean that the meta-cognitive explanation preferred by Dunning, Kruger and colleagues can’t hold in some situations; it very well may be that in some cases, and to some extent, people’s lack of skill is really what prevents them from accurately determining their standing in relation to others. But I think our default position should be to prefer the alternative explanations I’ve discussed above, because they’re (a) simpler, (b) more general (they explain lots of other phenomena), and (c) necessary (frankly, it’d be amazing if regression to the mean didn’t explain at least part of the effect!).

We should also try to be aware of another very powerful cognitive bias whenever we use the Dunning-Kruger effect to explain the people or situations around us–namely, confirmation bias. If you believe that incompetent people don’t know enough to know they’re incompetent, it’s not hard to find anecdotal evidence for that; after all, we all know people who are both arrogant and not very good at what they do. But if you stop to look for it, it’s probably also not hard to find disconfirming evidence. After all, there are clearly plenty of people who are good at what they do, but not nearly as good as they think they are (i.e., they’re above average, and still totally miscalibrated in the positive direction). Just like there are plenty of people who are lousy at what they do and recognize their limitations (e.g., I don’t need to be a great runner in order to be able to tell that I’m not a great runner–I’m perfectly well aware that I have terrible endurance, precisely because I can’t finish runs that most other runners find trivial!). But the plural of anecdote is not data, and the data appear to be equivocal. Next time you’re inclined to chalk your obnoxious co-worker’s delusions of grandeur down to the Dunning-Kruger effect, consider the possibility that your co-worker’s simply a jerk–no meta-cognitive incompetence necessary.
So, instead of chalking your obnoxious delusions of grandeur (of knowing the Dunning-Kruger effect) down to the Dunning-Kruger effect, you who seems so fond of using it just to scold others, I’ll just safely assume you are a jerk.
No offense meant, just paraphrasing the last line of the quote.
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March 6th, 2019, 17:03
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
He besmirched the good name of tea - what did you expect!
I drink tea, every day. Green tea. Though not from China.
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March 6th, 2019, 17:11
Well i doubt anyone has missed what he's doing but why not make a small summary (because it's kind of fun, and it might be good for ripper if he's so deluded that he doesn't know what he's doing).

* He tries his argument.
* It doesn't work out so he has to use bait.
* Bait has to be something totally unrelated to what is being discussed so he can to try to win another argument instead of the one he lost. In this thread he's suddenly going for "immortality" (wow, how subtle, not digressing from the subject at all, are we?)

When that doesn't work he tries with it's important to not take advice to e.g take something that might harm you. It's for anyone to see, my argument was always the opposite of taking something, it was to research this on e.g pubmed or on a forum where such things are being discussed a lot (i gave an example of one such forum).

NOW i will promise i will leave the thread so that ripper can get his last say and he can feel that he "won". I'm beginning to feel bad for him (for real).
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March 6th, 2019, 18:11
@Eye

Ok, I think we need to break that down a bit. The second excerpt is the opinion of one psychologist, and he is saying, essentially, that we shouldn't always assume it's a Dunning-Kruger situation, which I agree with. That's why I only use it when I think it's the correct interpretation of the problem, and not just as an insult when I disagree with someone. I appear to have used it in three threads since I've been here. I'm using the term here because I think it fits, in this specific case. This is a conclusion I've reached from observing consistently similar behavior, in different domains, over a period of time.

The first excerpt is from Dunning, and I understand and agree with what he's saying - Dunning-Kruger is something that applies to all of us, and is not simply a synonym for dunces.

The first is they think it’s about them [i.e., others]. That is, there are those people out there who are stupid and don’t realize they are stupid.

Now, those people may exist, and the work isn’t about that. It’s about the fact that this is a phenomenon that visits all of us sooner or later.
[…]
The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.
But, I've tried to make that clear in what I've been saying. I said earlier it would make sense to assume, without a sound basis to believe otherwise, that I might be full of shit, too. And in this post, I'm describing exactly how this is an error we must watch for in ourselves, and how to try and avoid it.

So, I still think you are misunderstanding the core of my point. I am not saying that I am the supreme authority, and all who disagree are fools. I'm saying that over-confidence in one's ability to draw conclusions from complex data tends to be the preserve of those who lack understanding. I am not saying that I understand everything on Pubmed. Far from it. A great deal of it would be outside my wheelhouse, and I would be very cautious of making any comment on the vast majority of it. In terms of making recommendations from bits of research that I don't really understand, and that, crucially, I haven't studied in context of all the available data on the subject, there's no way - that's a huge, specialist investigative task, involving long-term metastudies of the studies. I'd only pass along such advice when it's coming from a very credible authority, that I know would have done that exhaustive work.

And so, I think forums where people disseminate bits of nutrition and health woo, and the people who tout them, are best avoided by sensible people.
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March 6th, 2019, 18:22
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
* He tries his argument.
* It doesn't work out so he has to use bait.
* Bait has to be something totally unrelated to what is being discussed so he can to try to win another argument instead of the one he lost. In this thread he's suddenly going for "immortality" (wow, how subtle, not digressing from the subject at all, are we?)

When that doesn't work he tries with it's important to not take advice to e.g take something that might harm you. It's for anyone to see, my argument was always the opposite of taking something, it was to research this on e.g pubmed or on a forum where such things are being discussed a lot (i gave an example of one such forum).
Hardly. You pointed us to a preposterous forum, and stated that these people are extremely well-educated and helpful, and it's a good place for someone to search for nutrition advice. That seems a pretty ringing endorsement, to me. Is it so hard to see why someone might criticise that?
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March 6th, 2019, 19:19
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
And so, I think forums where people disseminate bits of nutrition and health woo, and the people who tout them, are best avoided by sensible people.
Sensible people?
I had a well-meaning GP once who, being out of options in conventional medicine, sent me - seriously - to a paragnost.
Anti-vaxxers are usually highly educated people.
Many scientists working daily to prove theories accept without any shred of evidence the existence of God.

Sensible people?
Be it smart or stupid, highly educated or just with mere common sense, we are all people hoping something might help us to improve our lives. And sometimes, you find something that works for you in the weirdest places. Or it teaches you what you absolutely do not want (again). It is your life. I am not going to tell others that if they visit certain places they’ll be seen as not being “sensible people”.

You are free to avoid those sites, Ripper. And to warn others, though a respectful way works best I think. Others are still free to visit those sites. That does not make them less in any way if you ask me.
Me, I do not have the illusion that telling someone on a forum not to visit a certain place will have any effect. It might even have the opposite effect of what I’m trying to achieve, as Arkadia7 pointed out earlier.

As for the rest: I get your drift. And you got mine, I think.
And we both drink tea, that is a plus for ya.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:03
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Sensible people?
I had a well-meaning GP once who, being out of options in conventional medicine, sent me - seriously - to a paragnost.
Well, a GP that refers you to a professional conman should be struck off, IMO. But that's quite a good example for the conversation. To you (and me) that is an outrageously silly and irresponsible thing to do - which is why you're offering it as an example of health professionals that are not sensible (and there are a regrettable number of those.) So, at a certain point, we both decide, "That is just too much - I cannot respect that sort of nonsense." It's just a question of where we draw the line.

And that ties into the question of respect. I respect the vast majority of people on the Watch, and I try to put my arguments in a respectful way, most of the time. In fact, since you mention the subject of God, a couple of the people here that I'd put in my "highly-respected" category are believers, whereas I am not - and you don't get a much more profound disagreement than that. But, I have no doubt they would come with good arguments, if they chose to debate it, and I don't think it would devolve into disrespect. But, in some rare cases, like your GP and his psychic, I think it goes beyond the point of the respectable.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:13
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Though I understand your concerns I think the net just reflects how people are and have always operated.
To refer everyone who is asking for advice to an expert (#113) is over the top.
If your neighbour asks you something about lice in the garden, do you refer him to a professional gardener or do you just give him some tips you have picked up that you have applied yourself?
I agree that looking for or giving advice on the web may be just fine, and is something that has always been done even before we had access to this wonderful tool. And everyone's free to give advice as far as he think he's able to. Yet I think the internet does more than just reflect, it magnifies certain things.

Regardless, I think there are things better left to experts. Vine lice? Ask your neighbor. Is that tree sufficiently damaged to topple and kill me during the next storm? Might have to ask an expert. Tax forms for someone who's a salaried employee? Ask your friend. Taxes for a small independent business? Might need an expert. A splinter in your thumb? Remove it yourself. A twelve inch metal pole stuck in your chest? Maybe visit a doctor (Unless it's stainless steel, that's benign. See? Internet advice can be the worst. ).

Yes, most people can distinguish these cases. Probably anyone posting here is doing just fine. But not everyone who might read it. I'd say a carefully worded disclaimer can't hurt. Afterall, that is just a different type of advice, which as I said everyone should be free to give.

Originally Posted by Eye View Post
If your brother asks you about the annual tax declaration, do you point him to Deloitte or Ernst & Young?
I just might, I hate that guy (kidding. )

Originally Posted by Eye View Post
To have to take into account someone has an unknown precondition when giving dietary advice… that means you also can not exchange recipes? Someone might have an unknown allergy problem. Whose responsibility is it?
And what’s “sufficiently extreme”? Vurts remark that he himself does not drink too much tea? Or when asked about it, his remark he does not know that much about it but that he got it from a forum and advises to do a search there? Or his remark that the particular forum is Longecity?
That part was not in reference to a specific post, rather to the issue in general.
What I would find sufficiently extreme might be stuff like long term fasting, or very restrictive diets.

Originally Posted by Eye View Post
I say pick your battles.
That part is solid and good advice. Totally agree.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:22
Wow, didn’t see this coming when i asked for a simple link.
@vurt thanks for the link.
@Ripper, thanks for the concern. I realized they’re people who believe everything they read on the internet but fear not I’m not one of them. I also don’t believe vurt was giving me health advice. I asked him for the link and he provided it. I will review the information and if i find anything i think is note worthy i will discuss it with my nephrologist and go with his recommendation. He’s kept me healthy (as healthy as i can be) for the past 15 years and I trust him implicitly.

@fluent, I’m glad you have such strong belief in your faith but I’m sad for you that you seem to not have enough reasons to take care of yourself.

For me personally even if a god descended and showed be the after life and i was 100% certain it would be great, I would be in no hurry to leave this existence. I enjoy life too much. Spending time with my family and friends, walking in the park with my wife with the sun beating down, cuddling on the couch with her, joking and gaming with my son, etc. I wouldn’t want to shorten my time doing these things. Even if i knew I’d see them in the afterlife, what’s the rush?

Also, I’ve heard the “going to die eventually anyway, so why not have fun” Mantra quite a bit in the past. Weird thing is is “fun” in these cases is always something unhealthy. Smoking, drugs, drinking, eating in excess, etc. Maybe I’m just boring but being healthy and able to enjoy the things i listed above and many other things for as long as possible seems fun to me.

I don’t know how old you are but i know i think totally differently now than when i was young. It would be a shame if you change your mind when you older but it was too late.

On last point, your death wouldn’t just affect you. It would also affect your family and friends. I would hate to think i robbed my sons of time with thier father because I didn’t care about my health. My mom died at age 34 from complications from the very kidney disease that i have. Difference was should was a heavy smoker and wouldn’t quit even though the doctors told her she needed to. Ended up having a stroke caused by high blood pressure as a result of the kidney disease and smoking. She never saw me or my 3 brothers graduate, get married or have her grandchildren. It’s just sad. I’m 47 now, live as healthy as possible and my kidney condition is doing great and my prognosis is great. Last BP 120/77. Yay me.

Anyway sorry for the lecture i just thought I’d try and give you some stuff to thing about. Good luck no matter what you choose.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:28
@Ripper
Well, the point I tried to make is that being sensible has more to do with what you are doing in a specific situation, as opposed to who you are or what you are supposed to be.
I had great respect for my GP, he really tried to help me, because he cared and felt sorry for me, but as a human being he believed in something I personally did not and do not believe in. By acting the way he did he put me in a rather awkward situation: a situation that became personal. It should have stayed professional. In that sense it was irresponsible, I agree.

Anyway. We all are sometimes not acting sensibly.
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Last edited by Eye; March 6th, 2019 at 21:49.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:33
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
@Ripper, thanks for the concern. I realized they’re people who believe everything they read on the internet but fear not I’m not one of them. I also don’t believe vurt was giving me health advice. I asked him for the link and he provided it. I will review the information and if i find anything i think is note worthy i will discuss it with my nephrologist and go with his recommendation. He’s kept me healthy (as healthy as i can be) for the past 15 years and I trust him implicitly.
Just to be clear, I thought it was highly unlikely that you, personally, would not assess the information properly - my point was just that when someone asks for health information relation to a serious health condition, and gets directed to the Immortality Institute, I'm a little alarmed!

I suspect (and by no means take my word for it) that what your nephrologist will tell you is that the consumption of tea is fine in moderation - which would likely be the sound advice for the rest of us, for most natural foods.
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Last edited by Ripper; March 6th, 2019 at 20:57.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:36
@sakichop, You might have misunderstood. I'm not actually shooting for a long life, just for a happy one, however long it may be. I'm not going to limit myself like I used to, looking over every ingredient or worrying about every detail. I still try to live healthy enough and pay enough attention so I'm not eating anything TOO crazy, or doing anything crazy in general. But I just am going to enjoy my time here. If that means I smoke right now, that's how it is, maybe I'll quit smoking again in a year, who knows? But I'm done suffering my existence and worrying about things like that. I'll take a happy life for however long that may be, and if I end up dying from some horrible cancer from smoking, well that's just how God sees fit to end it then, eh?

If you put faith in God to take care of you you don't have to worry about anything. That's what I've done with my life.
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