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March 21st, 2017, 17:25
No, chaotic doesn't mean more challenging, it means chaotic. If I meant it in a positive way I would have said it differently.

Playing in RT mode leads to a lot of unnecessary deaths for companions who like to charge headfirst into battle.
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March 21st, 2017, 17:29
Originally Posted by tomasp3n View Post
So so your guys play in RT or Turn based? I've always kept in on RT since that's the default, does changing to turn based make for example a gunslinger more viable? I've always favoured tech builds but they did feel harder to pull off.
Definitely TB.
This way I can use my Harm mage exploit with great success.
Also, the limited companion AI is somewhat less annoying, but not much. (Companions in RT are a major pain in the ass IMHO)
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March 21st, 2017, 18:17
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
No, chaotic doesn't mean more challenging, it means chaotic. If I meant it in a positive way I would have said it differently.

Playing in RT mode leads to a lot of unnecessary deaths for companions who like to charge headfirst into battle.
Chaotic can be fun and challenging, though. That is why I'm interested in trying it.

It seems sort of like the option to choose ATB (Active Time Battle) vs. Wait modes in games like Chrono Trigger or earlier Final Fantasy games.

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March 21st, 2017, 18:27
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Definitely turn-based. RT gets too chaotic once you have a few companions, and it seems to use up bullets/arrows faster too. I only switch to RT if it's against weak enemies that I need to quickly mop up.
Thanks, the ammunition is one of the aspects I was thinking of, ammo supply is short in the early game.

Doesn't combat take forever in turn based though, every enemy can take like 20 hits before going down?
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March 21st, 2017, 18:33
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Chaotic can be fun and challenging, though. That is why I'm interested in trying it.

It seems sort of like the option to choose ATB (Active Time Battle) vs. Wait modes in games like Chrono Trigger or earlier Final Fantasy games.
IMHO, RT in Arcanum is bad…
because the underlying battle mechanics are much more complex than Chrono Trigger's or Final Fantasy's ATB. ATB is nothing more than a very fun, glorified "cooldown" system, and your actions are very simple: physical attack/defense, elemental attack/defense.
Arcanum's battle system factors in i.e. visibility / lightning, positioning, and a bunch of other stuff you must be aware of. Not very ideal for a quick RT system.

RT was masterfully made in Diablo (et al), but the criticism is that battles in Diablo are shallow click-fests. So I guess this is a debate that cannot be solved peacefully.

You want either control (turn based) or speed (real time).
If you want both, then you are designing an action game, not a tactical RPG.
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March 21st, 2017, 18:41
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
IMHO, RT in Arcanum is bad…
because the underlying battle mechanics are much more complex than Chrono Trigger's or Final Fantasy's ATB. ATB is nothing more than a very fun, glorified "cooldown" system, and your actions are very simple: physical attack/defense, elemental attack/defense.
Arcanum's battle system factors in i.e. visibility / lightning, positioning, and a bunch of other stuff you must be aware of. Not very ideal for a quick RT system.

RT was masterfully made in Diablo (et al), but the criticism is that battles in Diablo are shallow click-fests. So I guess this is a debate that cannot be solved peacefully.

You want either control (turn based) or speed (real time).
If you want both, then you are designing an action game, not a tactical RPG.
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
IMHO, RT in Arcanum is bad…
because the underlying battle mechanics are much more complex than Chrono Trigger's or Final Fantasy's ATB. ATB is nothing more than a very fun, glorified "cooldown" system, and your actions are very simple: physical attack/defense, elemental attack/defense.
Arcanum's battle system factors in i.e. visibility / lightning, positioning, and a bunch of other stuff you must be aware of. Not very ideal for a quick RT system.

RT was masterfully made in Diablo (et al), but the criticism is that battles in Diablo are shallow click-fests. So I guess this is a debate that cannot be solved peacefully.

You want either control (turn based) or speed (real time).
If you want both, then you are designing an action game, not a tactical RPG.
How is ATB a glorified cooldown system? I thought the point of ATB is that while you are in menus and figuring out which attack or item to use, the game is not paused. Thus the enemy can still attack you. In Wait mode, the game pauses while you're selecting your action.

In other words, it adds a bit of chaos. You have to quickly navigate menus without the game being paused.

I understand that Arcanum is complex and most players want total control but I would be interested in trying it in real-time for a different type of experience. They added the mode for a reason, right?

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March 21st, 2017, 18:42
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
You want either control (turn based) or speed (real time).
If you want both, then you are designing an action game, not a tactical RPG.
An interesting info for you, PC-only gamers.

Console RPGs are trying to solve this dilemma for decades. For example:
Tales-series: combine an RPG with a beat'em up.
Star Ocean series: combine an RPG with an arena shooter.
Resonance of Fate: an interesting twist on simultaneous moves.
Shadow Hearts: novel approach for adding reflex gaming elements in a turn based system.
Elite Beat Agents: infuse RPGs with rhythm QTE

… and so on. Many games try to push the genre forward…
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March 21st, 2017, 18:45
Xenoblade Chronicles for the Wii has a fairly fast-yet-tactical ATB-style system. Wouldn't be confused for traditional action combat, though, as it takes place in "rounds" like RTWP does, but it doesn't allow a real pause to select orders.

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March 21st, 2017, 18:45
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
How is ATB a glorified cooldown system? I thought the point of ATB is that while you are in menus and figuring out which attack or item to use, the game is not paused. Thus the enemy can still attack you. In Wait mode, the game pauses while you're selecting your action.
Not really. You select an action, the action will be performed, and you cannot select an action again, till the ATB gauge fills up - so it is a cooldown of sorts.
The only difference is that it not the talents you perform have to cool down, but your character as a whole.

FYI, the initial idea for ATB was to emulate the "time flow" as per D&D. (that is casting time, etc). This idea was then simplified to the ATB system above.
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March 21st, 2017, 18:48
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
Not really. You select an action, the action will be performed, and you cannot select an action again, till the ATB gauge fills up - so it is a cooldown of sorts.
The only difference is that it not the talents you perform have to cool down, but your character as a whole.

FYI, the initial idea for ATB was to emulate the "time flow" as per D&D. (that is casting time, etc). This idea was then simplified to the ATB system above.
Maybe I used the wrong words. There are two modes to ATB - Active vs. Wait. In both modes, yes, the gauge takes time to fill up (it is also based on stats such as Speed, and spells can increase/decrease the speed that it fills up.) However, in Active mode, you can be attacked at all times, that is the game does not pause when selecting actions. This is why I think it is a bit similar to something like Arcanum's real-time system.

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March 21st, 2017, 18:51
I also wouldn't underestimate the complexity of combat in games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6, etc. An ATB system like FFVI's is sort of like Jeopardy. Not only do you have to know the answer, you have to press the trigger button fast to buzz in. So you have to think quickly and move quickly under pressure. In games like FFVI, for example, there are even input commands to activate special abilities, like Sabin's Blitz ability. These things are especially important in boss battles, as you try to find an enemy weakness yet doing so under pressure. Many different factors that can make the game challenging and play with the time element.

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March 21st, 2017, 18:54
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Maybe I used the wrong words. There are two modes to ATB - Active vs. Wait. …. However, in Active mode, you can be attacked at all times, that is the game does not pause when selecting actions.
Ah, I get it now. Yup, you are right, this is a somewhat chaotic, but as far as I know, the intention was to add tension to battles but not necessarily chaos.

In Arcanum, RT mode adds no tension, just frustration….
…mainly because of your braindead companions. If you play the game with minimal to none companions, RT mode can be fairly fun (but the game gets ultra-hard)
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March 21st, 2017, 18:59
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
I also wouldn't underestimate the complexity of combat in games like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6, etc.
Absolutely agree. Part of FF6's charm is that each of the playable characters do add their own little twist to the standard ATB formula. Hence it remains fresh throughout the 40+ hr adventure.

Also, if you have not played, I'd recommend you to try out Ni No Kuni and practically all RPGs from Tri-Ace as well.
For historical interest, Final Fantasy XIII's battle system is also a fun curio (when finally opens up proper, after about 15 hr of gameplay), shame that the game is a complete waste of time.
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March 21st, 2017, 19:16
What kind of decline dumbfuck would try to play Arcanum in RT?

It's designed fromt he ground up to be turn-based, the rt was added as an afterthought and way to get through trash mobs.

If a couple minutes in hard fights is too "boring" for you maybe you shouldn't be playing arcanum.

Tb let's you position and actually use your ranged weapons before getting closed in on, reposition your spellcaster (if that's what you are doing) and makes the combat more than a *click-the-enemy-and-hope-you-win*

In RT it plays worse than U7 combat.

The release is standalone, you dont need any other version of arcanum, just install it, play it, rather than arguing about shit you haven't even experienced for yourself.

and Final Fantasy's have always had the worst combat -- if you are leveled up enough you win, if you aren't it's lose or throw the dice. There's nothing complex about choosing between the same 3 menu options and using elemental weaknesses.
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March 21st, 2017, 19:35
I guess I am exactly the dumbfuck to try that, aethervagrant. I suppose my IQ simply isn't high enough and thus my inherent stupidity possesses me to try such a thing. Woe is me.

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March 21st, 2017, 19:41
by all meant try it.
And Fluent you are usually reasonably interesting intelligent poster.

but it sucks. Arcanum combat is already pretty shitty, just try RT for a bit with anything but a melee brute character and im sure you'll get sick of it quick. But the game isn't responsive enough for chaos, maybe a different game could pull of both combat mods somewhat effectively.
maybe too much codex time has turned me into a judgey asshole. But rather than post about potentially trying it, do so, with a ranged character, and post your impressions.
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March 21st, 2017, 19:46
Great news for a more than great game !
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March 21st, 2017, 19:59
This is intriguing, to say the least. I shall have to explore further
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March 21st, 2017, 21:21
Originally Posted by beldurax View Post
This is intriguing, to say the least. I shall have to explore further
please do and please say something about it.
Troika was one of the greatest, short-lived studios ever, and any rpg fan should check out all their games. If you LOVE crafting and scavenging go with a Tech build. If you want a simpler experience and less combat go with a charismatic magic user. Combat sucks, you figure out how to get through it, but the storytelling, writing, and setting are unparalleled especially since attempted steampunk is 99% shit. This is the best steampunk game since Martian Dreams and Dishonored.
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March 21st, 2017, 21:23
Originally Posted by aethervagrant View Post
please do and please say something about it.
Troika was one of the greatest, short-lived studios ever, and any rpg fan should check out all their games. If you LOVE crafting and scavenging go with a Tech build. If you want a simpler experience and less combat go with a charismatic magic user. Combat sucks, you figure out how to get through it, but the storytelling, writing, and setting are unparalleled especially since attempted steampunk is 99% shit. This is the best steampunk game since Martian Dreams and Dishonored.
the bolded part is truth.
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