Druidstone - Impressions Video - Page 3 - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Druidstone - Impressions Video

Default Druidstone - Impressions Video

June 11th, 2019, 14:22
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You're a special kind of snowflake.
What he is is a special kind of someone who appreciates that language should have meaning instead of just blurting out one's opinion over and over and declaring victory.

Just as someone who falls back on bullshit shorthand like "snowflake" or "SJW" is trying, feebly, to paper over the fact he can't make an argument.
--
contributed to: Age of Decadence | Dead State | Dungeon Rats | Battle Brothers | Fell Seal | Stygian
working on: Colony Ship RPG | Encased | ATOM RPG | Realms Beyond | Skald RPG
screeg is offline

screeg

screeg's Avatar
floating head
RPGWatch Donor

#41

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,068
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 17:19
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
He said something about a killscreen but that meant nothing to me. Every other sentence was either gibberish or hyperbole.
With all due respect lackblogger, you do have somewhat of a reputation here for playing stupid to troll people in the attempt to dictate terms. If you were genuinely interested in what a kill screen was, you could have easily googled it instead of attacking my post as if it were somehow indecipherable and meaningless. With all that said, I'm sorry it didn't make sense to you. I'll try to do better next time.

For the sake of argument, I will attempt to clarify and elaborate a little on my posts. Please note that I'm not the one trying to create a vague genre here. I'm also not trying to extrapolate or generalise the concept of exploration to a whole slew of other game genres outside of the specific topic of LoG and dungeon crawling RPGs, not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. In essence, I was merely describing why I thought that Legend of Grimrock was deserving of the phrase "exploration game" within the tradition of classical dungeon crawlers and how it featured prominently as a key component within its gameplay.

I once wrote a piece of short fanfiction dedicated to my early time playing Dungeon Master on the Amiga, the grand daddy of all dungeon crawlers and arguably a central influence on Legend of Grimrock. Whilst I only made it to the fourth or fifth level on that particular computer, the sense of immersion and enthrallment I had from exploring and the thrill of discovery of those early dungeon levels was immense. Whenever I read over the experience now, a word which pops up regularly in my description of playing that game is "wandering". For me this links quite well with the act of exploring dungeon levels in Legend of Grimrock and the anticipation of seeking; whether that be treasure, lore, a riddle, a hidden switch, a challenging combat or simply a new stairwell to a new place.

Learning all of the possible pathways, monsters, secret doors, puzzles and the direction of a potential exit by simply wandering around (in a disogranised or organised way) within a tightly enclosed 3D space in first person perspective is central to the traditional dungeon crawler. It can be claustrophobic, supremely dark (when you don't have a light source) captivating, lonely, eerie, keenly atmospheric and pleasantly frustrating when these features are implemented well. These are some of the many reasons I return to dungeon crawlers. Isolated often ancient spaces with many hidden unknown elements that slowly reveal themselves the more you layers you unearth, the more you engage and the deeper you traverse. It's a simple primal kind of RPG pleasure to build characters to survive this experience as well.

If a dungeon level fails to be interesting to explore for me, it is often due to a lack of these qualities. One recent example of this was "Fall of the Dungeon Guardians" which I couldn't complete due to the gradually tiresome MMO-like grinding nature of its combat. I couldn't enjoy the environments anymore (after 11-12 levels) and moving within them was a chore due to feeling that the combat style was such an odd marriage for a dungeon crawler and something to be endured rather than enjoyed. In short, I lost my desire to explore. In contrast to this, I completed my first run-through of Legend of Grimrock 2 in 65 hours and didn't want it to end; such was my enjoyment of the dungeons in that game.

For those that wish to read my piece of fanfiction on Dungeon Master, be my guest:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/…ad.php?t=99463

I do want to briefly address another idea that has risen in this thread:
Claiming that somehow the ability to describe other games as exploration games in a similar way somehow negates any of what I say as meaningless I feel is a false conclusion and a little disingenuous in that it doesn't take into account the specific instances of what it can mean to explore in a variety of games. To be clear, the idea of exploration can obviously be applied in other relative degrees to other games and other genres but as I tried to demonstrate with Pacman, the experience is not the same as in Legend of Grimrock and indeed other dungeon crawlers. I hope that this paragraph makes sense and carries the level of nuance that I've endeavoured to give it.

In conclusion, many misunderstandings in arguments come directly from our use of language and in the differences in the way we use it. This is a problem explored at length in philosophy as well. (Wittengenstein) After further reading Kordanor's lengthy post, I see this as a matter of perspective in the way he sees the idea of exploration when games are stripped of their mechanics. The idea can be applied in many games where it plays a central role - the C64 game Elite comes to mind. Whilst it is primarily a space and trading simulation, strip all that back and for my mind as a kid it was also an exploration game.

That'll do for now. Sorry to those who came to the thread to read about Druidstone! I want to read more Watcher impressions of it as well given that it is made by the same developers.
--
Diddledy high,
Diddledy low,
Come brave blood sheep,
You've a goodly way to go.
- Brilhasti Ap Tarj
Pessimeister is offline

Pessimeister

Pessimeister's Avatar
Living Backwards
Original Sin 2 Donor

#42

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,888
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 18:09
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
With all due respect lackblogger, you do have somewhat of a reputation here for playing stupid to troll people in the attempt to dictate terms.
?????????????????????
lackblogger is offline

lackblogger

lackblogger's Avatar
retired poster
Original Sin 2 Donor

#43

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 18:25
97% of this thread has nothing to do with the topic. This is obviously an exploration thread.
--
c-computer, r-role, p-playing, g-game, nut-extreme fan
=crpgnut or just
'nut @crpgnut
crpgnut is offline

crpgnut

crpgnut's Avatar
Grumpy Role Player
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin Donor

#44

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: St. Louis, Mo USA
Posts: 7,766
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 20:40
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
97% of this thread has nothing to do with the topic. This is obviously an exploration thread.
And you seem to have fully explored it.
--
Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Pathway
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
Kordanor is offline

Kordanor

Kordanor's Avatar
Wastelander
RPGWatch Donor

#45

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,705
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 20:55
Originally Posted by screeg View Post
What he is is a special kind of someone who appreciates that language should have meaning instead of just blurting out one's opinion over and over and declaring victory.

Just as someone who falls back on bullshit shorthand like "snowflake" or "SJW" is trying, feebly, to paper over the fact he can't make an argument.
No, what she is is someone who's known to come into threads and instigate this exact type of commotion. My bullshit shorthand, as you put it, is just cutting to the chase when I know someone has no intention of having an amiable discussion.

Both Peissimeister and I have explained in logical, objective ways why exploration is a significant factor in games like LoG. It has nothing to do with opinions. To try and claim there's no exploration in LoG is mind-bogglingly daft.
JDR13 is online now

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#46

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 26,914
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 21:03
But maybe you misunderstood me then. I didn't want to claim that Grimrock has no = 0 exploration. I just think that the exploration in Grimrock is not very good and not a big factor. And the exploration in Grimrock is significantly worse than the one in other Blobbers. Pessimeister mentioned Fall of the Dungeon Guardian. I'd say the exploration in that game was a tiny bit better but still bad. I prefered it's combat over the combat of Grimrock and Grimrock had the better Puzzles.

And that's a general issue of lots of the recent blobbers/crawlers: They look generic. If everything looks the same, and only the skin and enemies change every level without any significant features or events to find, the exploration aspect takes a big hit.

Stonekeep had it's Dragon, it's special enemy encounters with dialogues, the Fairy "world", the Dwarven Stronghold, characters to find and recruit…that all added a lot to make the exploration stronger in this game.
Exploration is more fun if you suspect there could be something interesting behind the next corner. In most Blobbers of today, starting with Grimrock (1) you kind of know after a couple of hours that there isn't a lot to expect but other skins.
--
Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Pathway
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
Kordanor is offline

Kordanor

Kordanor's Avatar
Wastelander
RPGWatch Donor

#47

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,705
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 21:24
Exploration in RPGs is generally about discovering the map and uncovering any special loot or secret passages that maybe hidden somewhere. Additionally it is about discovering quest or story content for the thorough player. The joy of exploration in these games can further be enhanced by special interactions such as climbing cliffs or navigating rivers like in Pillars of Eternity.
Silver is offline

Silver

Silver's Avatar
Spaceman
RPGWatch Team

#48

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 7,195
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 21:40
@Kordanor Well, to be fair, you said it wasn't an exploration game. I interpreted that as meaning exploration wasn't significant or that there was very little of it, and you seemed to be arguing that. If you simply meant that you didn't find exploration very enjoyable in LoG, that's a different thing altogether.

Whether or not it's enjoyable in LoG is subjective of course, but I can understand how some people might not care for it. There isn't a ton of loot, and verticality isn't a big factor most of the time. Some might call it simplistic, and it is compared to games with wide open landscapes and lots of verticality.

I enjoyed the exploration in LoG for the most part, but I'm pretty sure I would have got tired of it if the game was much longer. I thought it was the perfect length for a dungeon crawler though.
JDR13 is online now

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#49

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 26,914
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)

Default 

June 11th, 2019, 22:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
No, what she is is someone who's known to come into threads and instigate this exact type of commotion.
??????????????????????
lackblogger is offline

lackblogger

lackblogger's Avatar
retired poster
Original Sin 2 Donor

#50

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)

Default 

June 12th, 2019, 17:38
Back on topic, I replied to someone who said:

Originally Posted by Saxon1974 View Post
Was really hoping it was an exploration rpg. Liked the grimrock games but this is a pass for me
By suggesting that Druidstone is an exploration game. Of course you explore stuff. If you watch just the first scenario on YouTube then the characters have to go into a cave which is not visible without going into the cave. They have to explore the level to complete the level. They have to explore loot options as well, it's not just a matter of standing there until the enemy is dead.

Saxon implied here that 'exploration RPG' is actually a thing. That the term 'exploration RPG' comes with a specific meaning that is so ubiquitous that everyone should immediately understand what is they are talking about.

Well, I'm sorry, but the term 'exploration RPG' is not a ubiquitous term and the first I'd even heard of it used in this kind of all-encompassing defining way was literally a few weeks ago. Sure, people use the term exploration a lot, it's a common word that covers a lot of ground, but to use it as a noun to describe a specific sub-set of a genre, as in "an Exploration RPG"? Nope, never before.

By the very definition of RPG and the concept of Adventuring then one is automatically exploring. It's a given. It's a given for practically every game that ventures further than something like Tetris or Candy Crush, the idea that you will be exploring some kind of environment.

Of course I want someone to clarify what they're on about. DUH.

Saxon, of course, didn't want to clarify.

Kordanor initially brought up Legends Of Grimrock:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Well…I'd argue that Grimrock wasn't an exploration game either.
Besides of secret passages, there wasn't anything interesting to "explore". A new level with a different skin and maybe new enemies, that was pretty much it. No story, no events. Besides of the twitchy combat that was, what made Grimrock so disappointing to me.
Which sounds ok to me. If you look at the Steam tags for LoG then it does not tag itself as "Exploration" whereas Wizardry does. I didn't read this as "LoG has zero exploration", I read it that "it's very lacking in exploration", which is what Kordanor has had to repeat multiple times while someone misunderstands him.

And this is on topic because Druidstone is made by LoG devs and the obvious route for any kind of "what were you expecting in the way of exploration" type responses. He's basically saying "it's the kind of level of exploration I'd expect from LoG devs".

Now steps in JDR13:

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
What a strange argument. Exploration was definitely a significant aspect in LoG.
There was nothing strange about Kordanor's post, whatsoever. He found the exploration lacking and described in detail why. JDR didn't reply with why he felt the exploration was 'significant' he just stated it without justification.

And it is clear at this early point that the discussion is the quality and significance of LoG's exploration, not that it has zero exploration. Because we're still replying to that guy who said "It's not an exploration RPG", even though all RPGs are inherently exploration games, implying that it's the significance of the exploration that matters.

Druidstone only has small bits of exploration, ergo it's not an "exploration RPG", to which begs the obvious question "how much exploration is an exploration RPG"? LoG doesn't have enough according to Kordanor and Steam, but suddenly JDR wants to state LoG has "significant" exploration…

Well, duh, can we find out why?

And that's exactly what Kordanor asks JDR:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
what would you consider an exploration aspect of LoG1?
Would you also say that Wolfenstein 3D has this type of exploration?

If it's about optional treasurerooms then…yeah, got it. But besides of that…but would be interesting to hear your take on it.
All perfectly logical stuff so far.

And what's the reply?

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I'm starting to wonder if you're being intentionally obtuse here. You're asking what I'd consider an exploration aspect in a game that's based around exploring a giant dungeon.
Another non-answer. Kordanor has already expressed why he though LoG lacked exploration aspects, he wanted to hear JDR's take on what makes the exploration "significant". What do we take from JDR's response? "An exploration RPG is one where you explore a dungeon", oh, you mean like DOOM and Wolfenstein?

What about Druidstone where you explore a forest?

There's nothing obtuse here other than the flippancy and arrogance of JDR.

Kordanor replies perfectly logically to the question of whether he's being obtuse:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Nope, I am not. Was an honest question.
So now we're fully derailed into an exchange of posts that have nothing to do with Druidstone because JDR doesn't feel like explaining what he's talking about. How many posts will it take for the LoG discussion to complete so that we can decide whether Saxon's claim that "Druidstone isn't an exploration RPG" is accurate or not?

Not any time soon it seems:

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Than I'll just assume you have a very different take on exploration than the rest of us.
Does he? What take are you taking? Three times in a row now just writing non-replies.

Bless his patient heart, Kordanor tires again:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Maybe. But can you describe what you see as the exploration part? And how it differs from the exploration part in Wolfenstein3D. I'd almost exclude Doom here as doom has more diversity in "uniquely" designed rooms and such, which grimrock 1 hasn't.
He is saying: "Can you just say what it is you're talking about please so this conversation can go somewhere"?

Fourth time's the charm: ?

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
That's like asking why water is wet and then trying to argue that it's really not. What part of exploring the dungeon didn't seem like exploration to you?
Good God. How much money does this guy give you people????????

Kordanor patiently tries asking again, with a very detailed and interesting post. Finally JDR writes a whole paragraph!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You're in a large 3D maze with a first-person view, and you can only see in a straight line in front of you. You can't see around corners or through walls, and you have no idea what's in the areas you can't see until you actually reach them and discover for yourself what's there. The only way to get thought the maze it to traverse the various corridors and rooms until you've uncovered the things you need to advance.

That *is* exploring. I wouldn't say LoG has the best kind of exploration, but that's beside the point. You're objectively exploring by any definition of the word.

It's literally that simple. If you finished the game then you did quite a bit of exploring. No amount of semantics is going to change that.
Where he says that exploration = walking round a dungeon, only in more words. And yes, what is described is indeed exploring. When you explore a dungeon you are indeed exploring. Just like when you explore a forest you are most certainly exploring it!

But wait, what are the further definitions given to us? 3d maze, first person view… wait, what, so Baldur's Gate 2 isn't exploration? Or is he just describing why LoG has exploration? Wait, yes, that's it, he's just describing what exploration is… that thing you do in pretty much every game ever, you know, "you have no idea what's in the areas you can't see until you actually reach them and discover for yourself what's there" etc etc etc. No shit Sherlock.

But Kordanor didn't say LoG didn't have exploration, he asked what makes it "significant". JDR does not express why anything he says make LoG's exploration any more or less 'significant' than any other examples of exploration in any other game ever made.

What the heck's going on here…

Kordanor is equally dubious:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
And this exactly is why I compared it to Wolfenstein 3D which is pretty much exploring on the same level. It fits perfectly to your description.

You could even go so far and say that almost every game as this minimum of exploration.
Perfectly logical response.

Now what's JDR going to say?????

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Whatever. You were originally claiming it didn't have exploration. Whether or not it's similar in some ways to another game is irrelevant.
WTF??????????????????????

How much does this guy pay you people???????

I really do admire Kordanor's patience, he quickly get's it back on track:

Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I did say that Grimrock wasnt an Exploration game, and you claimed that "Exploration was definitely a significant aspect in LoG.
Because Kordanor's still replying to Saxon's concept of "an exploration RPG" and the discussion is still the exact same one it was on the last page: "what is 'significant' about LoG's exploration?"

Oh my, I wonder if JDR's going get it yet?

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
It *is* a significant aspect in LoG. I just described why in an objective fashion, and your only reply, which you keep repeating like a parrot, is that somehow it isn't because Wolfenstein 3D also has exploration.

I don't get why someone would stand by such an obviously nonsensical argument, but good for you for not backing down. Some people enjoy looking obtuse I guess.
Nope, back to square one. Apparently it *is* a significantly exploration based game because it *is*. "I just described why in an objective fashion", no he just described a dictionary definition of exploration that could be applied to pretty much every game ever. There was nothing in that set of 'objective' reasonings to suggest Druidstone was not an exploration RPG, except the first person perspective dungeon maze, of course. But then Baldur's Gate..

So, yeah, clear as mud, as is obvious to anyone who can read.

This is where I reply to Saxon. I'm not even in this debate yet, I'm just replying to Saxon.

You [profile name You] then agrees that LoG is not really an exploration game and so doesn't think Druidstone is either, and chooses to cite a couple of classic-style Dungeon Crawlers as examples of good exploration games. Which brings us back to the notion that First Person Perspective Dungeon Crawler = an Exploration RPG???????

Pessimeister then chips in adamant that LoG is an exploration game - as if completely oblivious to the fact that no-one said it wasn't. Or maybe he did mean Exploration RPG as a noun used by Saxon? In which case, what was his reasoning? "You have to explore in it", yes, like every game ever. Doesn't mention Druidstone at all, just seems to want to tell everyone that in Dungeon Crawlers you explore stuff. Doesn't say why you don't explore stuff In Druidstone. Again, the implication seems to be Dungeon Crawler = Exploration Game, to which one wonder why people don't just say "Dungeon Crawler" instead of "Exploration RPG".

Screeg then sums up the non-descriptions supplied this far by both JDR and Pessimeister:

Originally Posted by screeg View Post
I guess if we all agree that the verb "explore" means to reveal things you hadn't known about or seen before, then these are all "exploration" games.

But all you've done then is create a tautology that says nothing. By that definition, Pac Man is an exploration game. After all, you don't magically know the layout of all the levels before you start playing, right?
Alas, he mentioned Pacman though so now, of course, Pacman is on the discussion board along with LoG, Wolfenstein and DOOM.

Oh well, let's hear about Pacman then:

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
That's not a great analogy unfortunately, as it is well known that Pacman has an end (the killscreen) and the maze to that point does not change. You can also see the entirety of the playfield immediately. A kid playing it for the first time might well be exploring the gameplay, yes - figuring out how it works, what the monster behaviours are and how to score well. But that's moving beyond the bounds of the specific type of exploration we're talking about in dungeon crawling.

You can try to reduce what I'm saying with semantics if you want to but I think most people will see the common sense in it.
Apparently we're the one's being semantic. All I can see is a repetition of the fact that Dungeon Crawler = Exploration RPG. Because… of first person perspective. Apparently Pacman is an exploration game but not the kind of exploration "we're" talking about. Ok…

So this is where I decide to:

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
come into threads and instigate this exact type of commotion
Bwahahaha, yeah, right, whatever. Wow, you must pay these people HUGE amounts of money…

When I reply to Pessimeister with:

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
None of you ever actually talk about what you're talking about though, so this sentence is gibberish.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by exploration? You know, in some kind of actual detail rather than hyperbole?
I mean, we all know what exploration is, it's a common word. I guess I could have written "Explration Game" or "Exploration RPG", but I guess I was hoping that the term "exploration" had some kind of special meaning beyond, well, exploration to what seems like three people now. Three claim to know what it means but can;t seem to expalin it in any easy way to three people who haven't a clue what they're talking about beyond "it has exploration"… to which "so do most games, duh"… to which "so what's specific about the exploration you're talking about"… to which why don't they just reply "Dungeon Crawler = Exploration RPG"… because if they are not then there must be a better way to describe it that just saying what a Dungeon Crawler is.

JDR then replies to me with garbage and wastes a few more posts, including one post that's just an ad-hominem attack and nothing more. You'll make careful not that I haven't conversed at all with JDR before this point, I replied to Saxon and Pessimeister, but JDR would like to reply to me with non-replies. How much does this JDR guy pay you people???????

Kordanor then gets back to talking about Wolfenstein and asking again for clarification about what aspects of exploration make a shooter Dungeon Crawler different from an RPG Dungeon Crawler that has weak exploration elements.

Screeg then pops back in to express his impatience with JDR.

Pessimeister then replies to me with a very long post which I was delighted to see, but all it seemed to contain was an ad hominem insult and a clarification that, for him, Exploration Game = Dungeon Crawler. There was no mention of Druidstone or any other example of an RPG that wasn't a Dungeon Crawler.

JDR then pops back in to type some more crap, the most outrageous being yet another ad hominem attack and:

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
To try and claim there's no exploration in LoG is mind-bogglingly daft.
As if he didn't have this exact conversation with Kordanor at the very start of the discussion. He still seems to be unable to comprehend the concept of "significance", the only relevant factor in the entire discussion. You know, how no-one's ever said that LoG has no exploration, as distinct from Kordanor saying "it's not an Exploration Game" in the context of the discussion.

The ever patient Kordanor then clarifies for the umpteenth time that he's talking about "significance". And then talks about Dungeon Crawlers.

Silver then describes exploration in terms of Pillars of Eternity - not a Dungeon Crawler, which seems to get a thumbs up from Pessimeister, which is incredibly confusing.

JDR then writes some more crap by implying he simply didn't understand what Kordanor was saying and then disingenuously suggesting the reason Kordanor doesn't think LoG is an Exploration Game is because he didn't enjoy it's exploration. He then talks about how much he enjoyed LoG and that therefore the "significance" of the exploration is subjective to how much you enjoy it.

And how much you enjoy the exploration seemed to be a key component in Pessimeisters rather long but insubstantial post:

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
If a dungeon level fails to be interesting to explore for me, it is often due to a lack of these qualities. One recent example of this was "Fall of the Dungeon Guardians" which I couldn't complete due to the gradually tiresome MMO-like grinding nature of its combat. I couldn't enjoy the environments anymore (after 11-12 levels) and moving within them was a chore due to feeling that the combat style was such an odd marriage for a dungeon crawler and something to be endured rather than enjoyed. In short, I lost my desire to explore. In contrast to this, I completed my first run-through of Legend of Grimrock 2 in 65 hours and didn't want it to end; such was my enjoyment of the dungeons in that game.
Which is always going to make describing something extremely difficult.

And, of course, it doesn't help when someone writes:

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
Please note that I'm not the one trying to create a vague genre here. I'm also not trying to extrapolate or generalise the concept of exploration to a whole slew of other game genres outside of the specific topic of LoG and dungeon crawling RPGs, not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that. In essence, I was merely describing why I thought that Legend of Grimrock was deserving of the phrase "exploration game" within the tradition of classical dungeon crawlers and how it featured prominently as a key component within its gameplay.
When the whole point of the conversation was to try and establish what is meant when someone says X is an exploration game whereas Y is not.

And when the whole point of the thread is to discuss Druidstone and the discussion had become "why isn't Druidstone an Exploration Game".

We all know that LoG has exploration in it. We all know it's a Dungeon Crawler and so adheres to some very basic Dungeon Crawler conventions, but beyond the things that are unique to Dungeon Crawlers:

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
within a tightly enclosed 3D space in first person perspective is central to the traditional dungeon crawler.
The question is "does it do much beyond that", to which the paragraphs you wrote that actually contain stuff about this question are:

Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
the sense of immersion and enthrallment I had from exploring and the thrill of discovery of those early dungeon levels was immense… a word which pops up regularly in my description of playing that game is "wandering". For me this links quite well with the act of exploring dungeon levels in Legend of Grimrock and the anticipation of seeking; whether that be treasure, lore, a riddle, a hidden switch, a challenging combat or simply a new stairwell to a new place.

Learning all of the possible pathways, monsters, secret doors, puzzles and the direction of a potential exit by simply wandering around (in a disogranised or organised way) within a tightly enclosed 3D space in first person perspective is central to the traditional dungeon crawler. It can be claustrophobic, supremely dark (when you don't have a light source) captivating, lonely, eerie, keenly atmospheric and pleasantly frustrating when these features are implemented well. These are some of the many reasons I return to dungeon crawlers. Isolated often ancient spaces with many hidden unknown elements that slowly reveal themselves the more you layers you unearth, the more you engage and the deeper you traverse. It's a simple primal kind of RPG pleasure to build characters to survive this experience as well.
And you started this list by referencing Dungeon Master and so it's difficult to discern which parts of this list relate to LoG and which to DM.

But let's assume that LoG doesn't have quite as much "Exploration Game" as DM, would it therefore be fair to say that you do think Druidstone is an Exploration Game, because it takes inspiration from Dungeon Master and LoG, with the "treasure, lore, a riddle, a hidden switch, a challenging combat or simply a new stairwell to a new place." which Druidstone has all of, or the "Learning all of the possible pathways, monsters, secret doors, puzzles and the direction of a potential exit by simply wandering around (in a disogranised or organised way)" which Druidstone also has, or would you say Druidstone is not an Exploration Game because it's not "within a tightly enclosed 3D space in first person perspective"?
Last edited by lackblogger; June 12th, 2019 at 17:50.
lackblogger is offline

lackblogger

lackblogger's Avatar
retired poster
Original Sin 2 Donor

#51

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,978
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
+1:
RPGWatch Forums » Comments » News Comments » Druidstone - Impressions Video
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:45.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by DragonByte Security (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch