Skyrim - Creation Kit Confirmed

Matt Grandstaff has confirmed a construction set for Skyrim with this exchange on the Bethsoft forums:

“Do you think the ‘Kit’ refers to a Construction Set analogue, thus enabling moddability of Skyrim?”
Yes it does. We’ve always been impressed with what the community has done with our tools. Like the Elder Scrolls Construction Set for Morrowind and Oblivion, we plan to release Creation Kit so you guys can mod Skyrim :celebration:

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Spotted by Omega on Ripten.
More information.

Wow very nice. This is great news. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned. Allowing the community to add value to the game is good business.

Totally agree. Whatever your gripes may be about the the games, about the company, or even just Todd, you have to hand it to them for recognizing that we can make better content than they can!

They would have been nuts not to, considering all the improvements that modders "helped out" with. Still, it's good to know that they're not nuts.

I'm going to go against the grain and make what might be a controversial statement.

I wish that dev-supported modding tools would go away.

I get why people like them, and they can be fun in their own way, but IMO this is overshadowed by the fact that it's too easy for designers to use them as a crutch. I have no evidence this happens, but when you have limited resources to deal with the countless issues that arise prior to launch, I have to imagine it becomes very easy to de-prioritize things that could be fixed through modding.

The only use I get out of modding tools is when I go to play a game and I google for mods that don't impact the gameplay or in-game content, but are generally considered must-have fixes that should have been included with the game. And every time I do this, it drives me nuts that this is even required. If we took away the crutch of these modding tools, perhaps there would be added pressure on the devs to get it right the first time.

At the very least, maybe wait 3 or 6 months until after release to provide supported tools.

Oh well, it's not like this is the biggest problem facing computer games. Just feeling non-conformist today, I guess…

Considering the success the unmodded games had on the consoles (probably their most important market now), I don't think the argument holds much water.

Fantasm said:

I wish that dev-supported modding tools would go away.

I get why people like them, and they can be fun in their own way, but IMO this is overshadowed by the fact that it's too easy for designers to use them as a crutch. I have no evidence this happens, but when you have limited resources to deal with the countless issues that arise prior to launch, I have to imagine it becomes very easy to de-prioritize things that could be fixed through modding.

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Put in your context I agree, but modding is also to give people more flexibility to create the game they'd really like to see. There's just no way a single game can be everything to everyone, but modding makes that happen for more people.

Sure the quality of the game itself is important. No doubt. Empowered customers who are free to explore their own creativity and share that with others (usually at no charge) is fantastic.

Was there ever any doubt that they would release the tools as well? Bad plots, boring NPCs, open worlds, huge areas to explore and excellent modding tools are basically what Bethesda is known for now.

@Fantasm People will try to mod games that don't come with toolsets. Take TOEE for example. No modding software made by the devs, yet they modded the heck out of it and fixed it.

If the dev wants to release tools that help modders out there then all the better. I don't believe that Beth has ever really relied on modders out there. They've always made games that pretty much suck in certain ways and are outstanding in others.

I don't really believe things were left out of these games because of modding tools since these are some of the largest games that exist and even Daggerfall had things that either were left out or people thought were left out. Also what seems to be a must have mod and should have been in the game is the opposite to the next person. Also remember that some things were not done because either engine limitations or the financial backers didn't want it.

skavenhorde: I think Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 are better examples of games with a large modding community without the company releasing tools.

Remember the level designers at Bethsoft need some form of editor as well. I'm sure their tools are still in development along with the game but they are probably further along (because of the public release of the tools) than most equivalent games. This means content and DLC can be potentially developed faster.

I don't think for a second the inclusion of tools meant they left a feature out for modders to fix. If they left anything out, it was for their own reasons.

guenthar said:

skavenhorde: I think Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 are better examples of games with a large modding community without the company releasing tools.

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Perfect example as well. Both TOEE and BG 1 & 2 are still being modded to this day.

I usually complete most RPGs 2-3 times as soon as they're released, and then put them away for a long time. In other words: I don't really care about modding, because I'm done by the time the good mods are released.

Still, I suppose releasing modding tools is a good thing, as it adds a lot of value for a lot of players.

The surprising thing here is not that they do it but that they confirmed it this early. They mucked around a long time before confirming they would release the CS for Oblivion. One thing that could mean is that they took "end user usability" as a goal for the design of the creation kit early on, which would be a good thing.

Fantasm said:

I'm going to go against the grain and make what might be a controversial statement.

I wish that dev-supported modding tools would go away.

I get why people like them, and they can be fun in their own way, but IMO this is overshadowed by the fact that it's too easy for designers to use them as a crutch. I have no evidence this happens, but when you have limited resources to deal with the countless issues that arise prior to launch, I have to imagine it becomes very easy to de-prioritize things that could be fixed through modding.

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Neverwinter nights is an example of a game where the toolset is better than the default campaign, yet the toolset alone is worth the money. Few enough games release toolkits and as far as I know none were released to make up for the flaws/lazzyness in the actual game like a day one patch or DLC.

What you suggest would lead to a stop of alot of creative work that this industry desperatly needs and even more DLC being shoved down our throat for 20€. Calling your statement idiotic is putting it gently.

I don't think for a second the inclusion of tools meant they left a feature out for modders to fix. If they left anything out, it was for their own reasons.

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Actually, if I was in charge of development, there are some things I would leave out. High end graphics leap to mind. If you make a game super high-end graphics, there are always a ton of players that will use those settings on PCs that have no business even trying those settings - and they will blame your company instead of their PC when it turns into a slideshow. (Kinda like the "not my little angel" syndrom that teachers face.)

However, if you let the modders do it, the modders take the heat. Since the modders aren't paid, they couldn't care less. What's more, people that don't know how to keep their computers up to date often don't know much about mods, either.

Of course, they are also good for the nude mods. I probably don't want to know how many sales those things add to the main game.

Fantasm said:

I'm going to go against the grain and make what might be a controversial statement.

I wish that dev-supported modding tools would go away.

I get why people like them, and they can be fun in their own way, but IMO this is overshadowed by the fact that it's too easy for designers to use them as a crutch. I have no evidence this happens, but when you have limited resources to deal with the countless issues that arise prior to launch, I have to imagine it becomes very easy to de-prioritize things that could be fixed through modding.

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The better the tools the better they are able to make content themselves. And its not like many devs release tools like Bethsoft does. Its not even widespread. And I dont think Beth has ever used it as a crutch.

Thanks for the respectful replies. My comment was borne out of frustration that a big part of many high-end AAA titles these days is to do research on mods and how best to modify your game experience to overcome any deficiencies. And of course you can't get too far down that road before dealing with potential incompatabilities. I just hate the whole process.

Note that my original comment was railing against "dev-supported modding tools", not all modding in general. The examples of the games listed above that were modded without any dev-supported tools is actually what I would like to see more of. By raising the bar a bit to allow changes to your games, a couple things happen that I think are good. For one thing, it means that people will need to be that much more motivated to take on that challenge. Let's face it, 99% of the mods that are made for these games is crap. If there's a real issue with a game that I want to fix through modding, I shouldn't have to find a fix by wading through thousands of amateur wannabe game designers who all have designed a new game-breaking sword or suit of armor.

The other thing that happens is that devs can't fall into the trap of thinking, "Well, if they don't like the decision we made on this game mechanic, they can always mod it to be different." That's a trap that I think is easy to fall into, and I would rather have the professional game designers make the tough decisions, which may in turn foster some hard looks at other aspects of the game to make that decision work better. At the very least, if it's that hard to figure out what works best, then maybe that's a sign that a user-controlled option should be made available in the Options menu so the user doesn't have to jump through hoops to make his game more enjoyable.

Despite my tone here, I really don't feel that strongly about this, I really don't. This is more to generate some discussion. My first thought on seeing this newsbit is that it would likely guarantee that we'll see several magazine articles titled, "The top-10 indispensible mods for Skyrim." And the cynic in me quickly jumps to the next thought that it sure would be nice if these "indispensible mods" could somehow make it into the original game!

I know people like modding games, and I readily admit that real improvements have been made through the process. But it's just so tedious to take advantage of those improvements. Maybe as a compromise, a game developer could solicition applications from the modding community to participate in a closed Beta that includes access to the development kit, and dangle the carrot that the development team will vote on the top 10 mods and include them in the game. Part of the application process could include past mods you've made for other games.

Hell, I don't know. Sorry if folks are upset at my proposed solution of doing away with dev-supported modding tools. Rather than focus on the drawbacks of my solution (which I readily admit to), are there folks at least willing to acknowledge the underlying problem of the frustrating end-user experience of modding your game to make a crucial improvement while thinking, "I really wish the devs had taken care of this!"

Hope this kit is easier to work with than the Geck which is what Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas use. It's powerful, but also awkward to use for some things.
I agree that a nearly bare game with their editor is probably worth the price of the game itself. I love the mods and even my own feeble attempts to change the game world just a bit.
Kudos on this!

There is no way that a game developer can put every feature everyone thinks should be in a game in the limited time they have to develop the game. There are several reasons why modders can and they are; modders don't have a set amount of time to work on mods, they also outnumber the developers by several times, and they are working on a completed game rather then creating the game (which is far more time consuming).

I can't believe anybody would bitch about the dev tools being release. Unfreakinbelievable. FACEPALM