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July 12th, 2021, 10:00
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I don't think driver development will be too much of an issue for Intel. With DX12 and Vulkan, the drivers are much smaller and simpler. When they talk about those APIs being "close to the metal", what that essentially means is that a lot of work that would have been done in the driver is now handled explicitly by the game engine (which has its pros and cons).
Yeah. I'm just thinking about those Fortnite benchmarks. Nvidia always does their "game ready" driver for the bigger titles. It looked like the intel card should have done better. I don't really know if an apples to apples comparison is compatible but the intel had about 600 "cores" and 1600MHz and the nvidia had 300 cores and 1300mhz. Also, intel had 4 more ROPS. But they were both getting similar max FPS but intel was getting these terrible low FPS and I'm just thinking nvidia has better Fortnite drivers. I mean, the card (Intel Iris Xe DG1) isn't aimed at gaming and so far its just an OEM part for Intel prebuilt rigs so it's likely there is something more that can be done on their software side of things.


Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
With RTX, DLSS and so forth, I think they will become increasingly significant. It's not so much that users are crying out for fancy reflections and so on, but that if developers can rely on realtime GI and such, it gives them way more freedom, and can let them work more efficiently. The trouble is, that stuff is performance hungry, but I think they'll be keen to push for it now the new consoles can handle it.
Global Illumination, right? I mean, any card can do that. There's been lots of games that have shadows moving based on the time of day. I tend to think the most efficient, older solutions are probably the best. When it comes to competitive games playing in low settings is always an advantage. When you're focused on the gameplay who gives a shit if the lighting is realtime?

I think I heard that the UE "Lumen" tech can make use of Nvidias tensor cores but the new AMD cards have no trouble with it. I mean, that PS5 demo was on the PS5 GPU which has 32 CU, iirc, while the desktop cards have 64 on the 6800. Also, I saw a video of someone playing around with that demo on PC and it looked like the whole thing only used 6GB ram. It would only display 22m triangles at any time, too. I wonder why Epic was going on about how important fast loading from HDD is when the whole thing fits comfortably in memory? It's always been the consoles have needed the fast streaming because they have relatively low memory and the PC port just loads the whole thing at once.
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July 12th, 2021, 21:45
With the driver situation, Vulkan and DX12 are closer to the metal, but not bare metal. So the idea of game-ready drivers is still a thing, because there's still some jiggery-pokery to be done to optimise the driver, but it's much less so than with DX11 and earlier.

With Global Illumination, it gets complicated. One of the things I've discovered in my fumblings with game engines is that lighting is way more of a PITA than one might imagine. It's not like a movie set, where you just set your lights to your liking. AAA games have technical artists that do a lot of work on tweaking and applying tricks to make scenes look good, in the most efficient way possible. True dynamic, realtime GI is very performance-expensive, and is rarely seen.

It's not so much which cards can actually do it, but which ones can do it with acceptable performance. I think what all studios would like to do is say that hardware capable of realtime lighting is now a requirement, which the new console hardware probably allows them to do. Then they can make their workflows more efficient, and leave lighting more to the regular artists and level designers, with less need for hardcore technical input.

I think the fast disk transfer question has more to do with Nanite than Lumen. Because it allows for an enormous amount of data to be processed (particularly if it were a proper open world game, rather than a tech demo) then there'd be a need to bring large assets into memory very quickly and dynamically, to avoid performance problems. But, from what I've seen among the gamedev chatter, most seem to think that UE5 is a bit overhyped, and not likely to make much of a difference in the near term.
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October 19th, 2021, 00:56
Well just found this article and if true that's some underhanded tactics.

Nvidia allegedly halting RTX 3000 production to keep prices as high as Possible

Link - https://www.notebookcheck.net/Nvidia….573312.0.html
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October 19th, 2021, 12:05
With two competitors on their heels, yes, it's very plausible
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October 19th, 2021, 17:45
Long, long ago, there was one newspaper article about people in a house complai ning about a lot of noise.
As it turned out, the noise was coming from porcelain manufactury, in which employees were smashing and breaking.
I still remember the line from the boss there : This smashing of porcelain items was, he said, a common habit to keep prices of porcelain items artificially high. what could not be sold was destroyed. There was no reducing of prices. And, he said, this was "perfectly normal".

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October 19th, 2021, 19:05
Maximizing profit - isn't that the basic idea of capitalism?
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October 19th, 2021, 19:40
Originally Posted by pibbuR View Post
Maximizing profit - isn't that the basic idea of capitalism?
More like it's the basic idea of anyone who has the opportunity of doing it legally and is not a hypocrite.
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October 19th, 2021, 19:58
Originally Posted by pibbuR View Post
Maximizing profit - isn't that the basic idea of capitalism?
For the record, I'm not advocating anything here. But I've heard repeatedly that under capitalism, the responsibility of buisness leaders is first of all to ensure max profit for the shareholders. It's not the interest of the customers. Quite often the two coincide, but as in this case, not always.

It may backfire. AMD may chose to - if they can - increase production with lower prices, thereby hoping to increase their market share. Or they may choose to do the same as NVidia, for the same reasons. It won't be illegal unless the two made an agreement.

You don't have to like it, but if (unrestricted?) capitalism is your thing, this is what you get, sometimes.

BTW, If there were more competitors, I think NVidia's strategy would be different.

pibbuR who is a bit uncomfortable writing this, and is wondering if he eventually chooses to delete it. He's not lilkely to post more.
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October 19th, 2021, 20:03
Originally Posted by pibbuR View Post
For the record, I'm not advocating anything here. But I've heard repeatedly that under capitalism, the responsibility of buisness leaders is first of all to ensure max profit for the shareholders. It's not the interest of the customers. Quite often the two coincide, but as in this case, not always.

It may backfire. AMD may chose to - if they can - increase production with lower prices, thereby hoping to increase their market share. Or they may choose to do the same as NVidia, for the same reasons. It won't be illegal unless the two made an agreement.

You don't have to like it, but if (unrestricted?) capitalism is your thing, this is what you get, sometimes.

BTW, If there were more competitors, I think NVidia's strategy would be different.

pibbuR who is a bit uncomfortable writing this, and is wondering if he eventually chooses to delete it. He's not lilkely to post more.
No need to be uncomfortable posting this. Well thought out posts are good.
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October 19th, 2021, 21:36
I don't like it as I'm paying three times the price just for a mid-range card. I don't care if this is capitalism, it's controlling the market, and hurling the PC market overall.

The console side isn't much better right now, and chip buyers are hoarding chips instead of making new cards. Frankly it's getting to the point were regulation is needed.

Link - https://www.pcinvasion.com/tsmc-chip…e-stockpiling/

The US government did it before to the three big telecom monopolies.

But no it's easier to make excuses and blame, scalpers, and shortage problems.
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Last edited by Couchpotato; October 19th, 2021 at 21:52. Reason: Added the Link
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October 19th, 2021, 21:45
I'm not sure if I buy what that article is claiming. Companies normally make their money on volume, and selling less units at a higher price doesn't seem like a sure-fire way to greater profits.
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October 19th, 2021, 22:15
Sigh it's looking like another 2 or 3 years to get back to something semi-normal. I also predict the prices will never go back to what they were at pre-Covid. Like $250-350.

Just like everything else we buy nowadays. Price goes up it never goes back down. The new price just becomes MSRP, and we all accept it. Man I need another vodka or raise.
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Last edited by Couchpotato; October 19th, 2021 at 22:45. Reason: Minor Spell Fixes
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October 19th, 2021, 22:42
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Sigh it's looking liker another 2 or 3 years to get back to something semi-normal.

Yes, it will definitely take years. People who believe that everything will somehow magically be back to normal with the RTX 4000 (RX 7000) series are in for a rude awakening. There must be a huge queue of people from this gen who have not upgraded because of the high prices. AMD, nVidia and partners are never going to be able to satisfy that pent-up demand with the next generation of cards.

I am actually expecting that things will get even worse for a certain amount of time after the RTX 4000/RX 7000 release (going to be a bloodbath) before they get better. How long that will take is anyone's guess but, yeah, late 2023 or 2024 sounds realistic.

I thought I was crazy when I bought my RTX 3090 for a whooping €1849 last December just before Xmas but now I gotta say that I have rarely been so happy with a graphics card purchase. It was a gamble back then. I knew I might end up biting my ass a few months later in case prices would drop back to normal but I kind of had a gut feeling and luckily pulled the trigger.

Next year, I'd love to get my hands on a RTX 4000 series highend card ASAP (RTX 4090?) but I think it will be all but impossible to get one for a moderate price for many, many months after the official "release".
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October 19th, 2021, 23:04
I cant even buy any Radeon RX 6000 or XT model for normal price either. I may have to bite the bullet and go the Ebay route for used or new for a $250 upmarked MSRP price.

I've seen those cards sell for $550-650. It's ridiculous for a $300 mid-range card. Maybe I should get one of those new Intel card's, but I worry about the software side.

Link -https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48306
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October 19th, 2021, 23:12
@Couchpotato

Since you are looking to shop for an AMD card, can't you sign up on their website for that lottery thing they are having? I don't know how good the chances are but since we seem to be on the same page with expectations that these supply issues will likely last for years, I think I'd just give it a shot.
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October 19th, 2021, 23:19
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
@Couchpotato

Since you are looking to shop for an AMD card, can't you sign up on their website for that lottery thing they are having? I don't know how good the chances are but since we seem to be on the same page with expectations that these supply issues will likely last for years, I think I'd just give it a shot.
I did but the chance to win the lottery is small. NewEgg has one as well. Doesn't help when the available stock is sold out very quickly, and they are newer cards as well.
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October 20th, 2021, 00:02
Originally Posted by Moriendor View Post
Next year, I'd love to get my hands on a RTX 4000 series highend card ASAP (RTX 4090?) but I think it will be all but impossible to get one for a moderate price for many, many months after the official "release".
Are they already talking about the 4000 series?

Not sure why you'd want to get a new card already though. If you just spent that kind of money last December, if seems like a waste to upgrade already next year. Unless there's something very significant in a new model, I usually skip every other generation.
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October 20th, 2021, 00:19
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Are they already talking about the 4000 series?



Not sure why you'd want to get a new card already though. If you just spent that kind of money last December, if seems like a waste to upgrade already next year. Unless there's something very significant in a new model, I usually skip every other generation.
Haha, I'm even more extreme than that. Still very happy with my 1070ti.

It's been great and I've not had any issues in any games I play.

I doubt I'll get a 4000 series either. Probably will have to upgrade by the time the 5000 series come out though.
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October 20th, 2021, 00:32
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Haha, I'm even more extreme than that. Still very happy with my 1070ti.

It's been great and I've not had any issues in any games I play.

I doubt I'll get a 4000 series either. Probably will have to upgrade by the time the 5000 series come out though.
I'm still using a 1080. I was trying to get a 3080, but I refuse to be gouged on the price.

I can still run most games at max settings though. I just hope my card lasts until this whole ordeal is over.

It's funny because I had a chance to get one for around $1000 earlier this year and passed because I thought that was too high. Now they're $1500-$1700.
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October 20th, 2021, 01:03
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Are they already talking about the 4000 series?

Not sure why you'd want to get a new card already though. If you just spent that kind of money last December, if seems like a waste to upgrade already next year. Unless there's something very significant in a new model, I usually skip every other generation.
Yes, rumor has it that the RTX 4000 consumer series (codename Lovelace) will be produced by TSMC on a 5nm mode. The RTX 4000 is once again supposed to become a monolithic design while AMD is supposed to apply their chiplet design from the Ryzen CPUs to the Radeon RX 7000 series.
It will be the first consumer multicore GPU if that is the case (ignoring pseudo multicore as in cards that had two chips on the same PCB, connected via bridges back some years ago).

It will be quite interesting to see who comes out on top next generation. Will AMD get the inherent between-chips-latencies and other multicore challenges (scheduling of tasks etc.) under control right from the start?
nVidia, btw, has also been working on multicore designs for years and the professional RTX 4000 cards (codename Hopper) might be the first to use it but consumer multicore on nVidia cards is not expected to happen before the RTX 5000 series.

The performance increase for both, AMD and nVidia, is expected to be very substantial. If that turns out to be true, it will be even harder to get a RTX 4000 card.

As for why I'm upgrading, well, I'm a techie nerd and a SINK (singe income no kids) so why not?

Quirks and all but I enjoy new tech like ray-tracing, DLSS and I have a 4K@144Hz screen now (huge 43" one). I'm a self-confessing graphics whore and I also enjoy sims like DCS World or MSFS which can never have enough horse power.

The days where we get a fully new GPU generation in the same year or maybe after 12 - 18 months seem to be over. It's always more like 20 - 27 months now.
You can get decent money for your old card on eBay so an upgrade to the next gen is quite affordable (before CoVid and crypto madness at least).

I have no problem spending that kind of cash on my hobby every two years or so. My only other hobbies are the gym and running/biking which are pretty low maintenance in financial terms (my gym is €19.99/month).
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