The Science Thread - Page 45 - RPGWatch Forums
|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » The Science Thread

Default The Science Thread

October 22nd, 2021, 18:55
Once again, you pretend I meant something I haven't said, I'll start to think you're doing that just for the sake of arguing.

I never said we were only exploring, nor that all of us had this tendency. Or that we were doing it all the time.

As for the budget for space exploration, I don't know where to start. Why limit the inclination to explore to space exploration budget? Why limit to any budget at all? Or why compare it to other occupations that have nothing to do with it?

A lot of wars are driven by the need to extend one's territory, and military budgets are far from small, just to allow for that or defend from it. You English people should know that better than anyone, by the way. How many countries all over the planet have been a colony or a dominion of the UK at some point? France, Portugal and Holland were not bad in that regard either.
Redglyph is offline

Redglyph

Redglyph's Avatar
SasqWatch
RPGWatch Team

#881

Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Good old Europe
Posts: 3,272
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)

Default 

October 22nd, 2021, 19:03
I'm not even British, I just live here

No need to be so defensive, you said humans are explorers, and I digress, that's all.

We are driven by vanity and power, and "humans are explorers" is a romantic concept that does not adjust to the reality of our species, just like a desire to live off clean energy. Those things will only happen when we have no choice, and not before. As it has, at every point in human history.
Nereida is offline

Nereida

Banned

#882

Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

October 22nd, 2021, 19:20
I fear that humanity might end up like in Wall-E.
--
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#883

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 20,353
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 12:20
I personally think there are only a limited number of actual explorers throughout history, the rest just did it for financial gain and ended up taking something that belonged to someone else, just because they wanted to have it and they had the power to do it.
Throughout history we have been conquerors, driven by greed, where we want to have what others have and take it by force if we think we get away with it. In that process we had to do some exploring though.
--
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. Douglas Adams
There are no facts, only interpretations. Nietzsche
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go. Oscar Wilde
Last edited by Myrthos; October 23rd, 2021 at 12:23. Reason: Semantics
Myrthos is offline

Myrthos

Myrthos's Avatar
Cave Canem
Administrator
RPGWatch Team

#884

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 10,387
Mentioned: 169 Post(s)

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 13:43
What I wrote is not a reproach or criticism of the British, by the way, I admire them a lot. Several great nations or people conquered many lands, I don't know if that should be a pride or not, since today we tend to look for moderation, respect of everyone, and so on, which is not always compatible with that. But it's certainly a remarkable feat, and it wasn't just "invasion", most of the time it brought something positive.

If we conquer other planets, we'll have to see if we bring something positive too, or if that's just to pump out all resources and screw it another time. I must admit my vision of our species is not the kindest one, these days.

I was really surprised to see the Mars Exploration Program was persevering and setting concrete, near-future goals the last few years. I thought it would be buried and forgotten because of financial priorities.
Redglyph is offline

Redglyph

Redglyph's Avatar
SasqWatch
RPGWatch Team

#885

Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Good old Europe
Posts: 3,272
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 14:00
It was Jules Verne who made stories of exploring the moon, and the centre of the earth, plus other continents as well.
--
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#886

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 20,353
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 14:02
The thing is there is no breathable atmosphere in Mars, the gravity is milder than in Earth, which would cause damage to our muscle and bone structure after prolonged exposure just by existing in there, and nothing really grows off the ground.

While technology can compensate for some of those things in the long term, the conditions for living in there will never be better than the conditions for living in Antartica, and I don't precisely see people piling up to purchase some patch of land in Antartica. And that doesn't even take into account the absurd cost of taking a pretty much one-way trip there, with no hope for help or return, should anything happen.

Touching down on Mars and setting up a colony seems feasible. Making it a second home? It's not happening.

Not unless we have to evacuate Earth because we managed to nuclear winter it or something.
Nereida is offline

Nereida

Banned

#887

Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 14:59
Well fun fact there are not many M class planets like Earth in the universe.
The nearest planet may be 12 light-years away, according to the scientists. As of June 2021, a total of 60 potentially habitable exoplanets have been found.
That's a very small percentage of the stars mapped out by us so far by telescope.

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o…net_candidates
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#888

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

October 23rd, 2021, 16:34
Well, we don't really know how many Earth-like planets there are in the Universe. We only have a limited ability to tentatively detect them, and chances are there countless ones out there. The trouble is the distances between them. Getting to the nearest stars is physically conceivable if we can overcome huge engineering challenges, but that still only gives us a tiny bubble to play in.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela
Super Moderator

#889

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 11,032
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 11:45
I often think that we could put a few plants on Mars to produce an athmosphere breathable for us … It would take a few million years though …
And the problem would be to find plants which can endure this planet's temperature range …
--
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#890

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 20,353
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 11:56
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I often think that we could put a few plants on Mars to produce an athmosphere breathable for us … It would take a few million years though …
And the problem would be to find plants which can endure this planet's temperature range …
Reminds me of the Mission to Mars and Red Planet movies. Unfortunately the reality according to NASA is we lack the technology, and mars wont be easy to terraform.

Link - https://www.planetary.org/articles/c…h-terraforming
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Well, we don't really know how many Earth-like planets there are in the Universe. We only have a limited ability to tentatively detect them, and chances are there countless ones out there. The trouble is the distances between them. Getting to the nearest stars is physically conceivable if we can overcome huge engineering challenges, but that still only gives us a tiny bubble to play in.
There are actually two schools of thought on that matter.
The mediocrity principle suggests that planets like Earth should be common in the Universe, while the Rare Earth hypothesis suggests that they are extremely rare. The thousands of exoplanetary star systems discovered so far are profoundly different from the Solar system, supporting the Rare Earth Hypothesis.
Also read this today and found it very interesting.

Earth may be trapped inside a giant magnetic tunnel

Link - https://www.livescience.com/earth-in…agnetic-tunnel
Our planet, along with the rest of the solar system and some nearby stars, may be trapped inside a giant magnetic tunnel — and astronomers don't know why.

A tube of vast magnetized tendrils, 1,000 light-years long and invisible to the naked eye, may encircle the solar system, astronomers propose in a new paper. Jennifer West, an astronomer at the Dunlap Institute for Astronomy and Astrophysics at the University of Toronto, made the proposal after an investigation into the North Polar Spur and the Fan Region — two of the brightest radio-emitting gas structures in our galactic neighborhood — revealed that the two structures might be linked even though they are located on different sides of the sky.

"If we were to look up in the sky, we would see this tunnel-like structure in just about every direction we looked — that is, if we had eyes that could see radio light," West said in a statement.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Last edited by Couchpotato; October 24th, 2021 at 12:37.
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#891

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 13:29
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I often think that we could put a few plants on Mars to produce an athmosphere breathable for us … It would take a few million years though …
And the problem would be to find plants which can endure this planet's temperature range …
This is a bit of a misconception.

The problem with Mars is that its gravity is 43% of Earth's. That does not only mean that you will have physiological and cardiovascular problems that will lead to a premature death after prolonged exposure which is why astronauts aren't allowed to take missions for more than 6 month - that's how long it's considered to be "safe" for the human body to not be subject to Earth's 1g).

It also means that Mars' gravity is not strong enough to retain an atmosphere. Even if you managed to transform Mars' air composition to match exactly that of Earth's, standing on Mars' surface would be like being in Earth's stratosphere because of how thin it would be - you would need oxygen tanks regardless to even survive for a few minutes.

There are things that can be done also to make Mars' atmosphere thicker, like using greenhouse gases, but the amount of them needed to create the thicker atmosphere that is heavy enough to stick to the planet would be high enough that the atmosphere would be toxic. And this is not a challenge within our reach yet, both because of its gigantic scope, and because we lack the appropriate technology to make it happen.

So really, the best we can do is take care of Earth for a few hundred years, because desperate lifeboats aside, there's nowhere to go until we can build our own home out of metal in space, then we don't need any planet, just go to whatever distance from the Sun we feel is best, and orbit happily forever. By the time the Sun's life is nearing its end, which is still a few billion years, whatever race humans turned into should be able to easily overcome the technological challenges of finding another suitable star to orbit and travel to it safely.
Nereida is offline

Nereida

Banned

#892

Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 13:45
No offense but that sounds boring and you have no exploration spark. Anyway no one in this thread was talking about building lifeboats to escape/abandon earth permanently.

That wont be needed until our sun cools down explodes and turns into a white dwarf.

Were talking about progress and advancement not constant stagnation.

As I said before I predict a colony on the moon first with the possibility of some type of space elevator. Then we can work on more bigger space stations and a shipyard.

This will be possible in 100-200 years at best. We need better tech first.

I will agree anyone going to mars now is basically a one way suicide mission.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Last edited by Couchpotato; October 24th, 2021 at 15:25. Reason: Correcrion white dwarf.
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#893

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 13:50
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I often think that we could put a few plants on Mars to produce an athmosphere breathable for us … It would take a few million years though …
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Reminds me of the Mission to Mars and Red Planet movies. Unfortunately the reality according to NASA is we lack the technology, and mars wont be easy to terraform.
I recommend reading Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars trilogy. It offers a very compelling story and very detailed realization of the Martian Dream. One of my favorite works of science fiction.
--
"Mystery is important. To know everything, to know the whole truth, is dull. There is no magic in that. Magic is not knowing, magic is wondering about what and how and where." ~ Cortez, from The Longest Journey
Arhu is offline

Arhu

Arhu's Avatar
Feline Wizard
Administrator
RPGWatch Team
Original Sin 2 Donor

#894

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,309
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 13:53
Originally Posted by Arhu View Post
I recommend reading Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars trilogy. It offers a very compelling story and very detailed realization of the Martian Dream. One of my favorite works of science fiction.
I've read those books in the past. There was two sequels if I remember. I did enjoy reading them as Earth in the books went through what's happening to our planet.

It was also interesting reading how two different species of humanity were evolving over the years. Though the second species was a genetic abomination by a mad scientist.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#895

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 15:00
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
That wont be needed until our sun cools down explodes and turns into a blue sun.
That's very optimistic, considering the rate at which we're turning Earth into a Greenhouse hell like Venus. According to most predictions, if nothing is done about it, Human life as we know it in Earth, doesn't have much longer than a century. Some scientists are not even sure if we're already at the point of no return in which no change in the rate at which we produce greenhouse gases will prevent it from being fatal for the human species (not for Earth, Earth will fine without us).

Also the Sun would first turn into a red giant when it runs out of helium to fuse in its core, eventually swallowing Earth within its own body, far before it turns into a white dwarf (it will never be a blue sun).

As a last note, Andromeda is in a collision course towards the Milky Way. We might need to think of getting out of the way before our Sun runs out of fuel to burn, although that event will likely occur afterwards.
Last edited by Nereida; October 24th, 2021 at 15:11.
Nereida is offline

Nereida

Banned

#896

Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 444
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 15:11
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
There are actually two schools of thought on that matter.
The mediocrity principle suggests that planets like Earth should be common in the Universe, while the Rare Earth hypothesis suggests that they are extremely rare. The thousands of exoplanetary star systems discovered so far are profoundly different from the Solar system, supporting the Rare Earth Hypothesis.
As I said, the fact is that we really don't know yet - so there's no shortage of hypotheses. The thing to bear in mind is whether Earth-like planets are extremely common, extremely rare, or somewhere in between, the sheer number of stars in the universe means that the absolute number of them is still highly likely to be very large.

If you look at that first article you posted about exoplanets, it mentions that in the systems they've looked at, around 15% may have Earth-sized planets in the habitable zone. Even if we then took the most conservative estimate on what fraction of those could actually support life, once you've multiplied that by all the solar systems in the universe, that's going to be a pretty large number. So "rare" in this context shouldn't be confused with "few".
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
Ripper is offline

Ripper

Ripper's Avatar
Ngikufisela iwela
Super Moderator

#897

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 11,032
Mentioned: 110 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 15:30
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
As a last note, Andromeda is in a collision course towards the Milky Way. We might need to think of getting out of the way before our Sun runs out of fuel to burn, although that event will likely occur afterwards.
Well…
Previous simulations have suggested that Andromeda and the Milky Way are scheduled for a head-on collision in about 4 billion to 5 billion years. But the new study estimates that the two star groups will swoop closely past each other about 4.3 billion years from now and then fully merge about 6 billion years later.
As likely as our sun cooling so the odds are the same.
According to a study in the journal Nature Astronomy, the Sun will 'die' in about 10 billion years. Stars, like the Sun, start to 'die' when they've burnt all of their hydrogen fuel. At this point, they expand and become a very large kind of star called a red giant. It's thought this stage will happen to our Sun in around five billion years.
Don't forget the giant black hole in our galaxy that might devour us as well.
The supermassive black hole that lurks at the center of our galaxy, called Sgr A*, has a mass of about 4 million times that of our Sun. A black hole is a place in space where gravity is so strong that neither particles or light can escape from it. Surrounding Sgr A* is a dense cluster of stars.
By that point we should have died off, evolved into something different, or colonized other galaxies. One of the greatest sayings is life will always find a way to survive.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#898

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 15:53
This thread has taken a gloomy turn!

But relax about the collision with the Andromeda galaxy, everybody! Stellar collisions are exceedingly unlikely even during a galaxy merger. Neither are we likely to be swallowed up by the central black hole.

Though the merger will most likely trigger an inflow of gas into the nucleus, feeding the hole, and activating a QSO right here in our own galaxy. But I guess that's survivable…?

I'd be more concerned about the billions of years of ennui that await us afterwards. The night sky in elliptical galaxies is exeedingly boring.
Atrachasis is offline

Atrachasis

Watchdog

#899

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 114
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)

Default 

October 24th, 2021, 16:01
Sorry for getting gloomy didn't mean to. Fact is everyone has a percentage you might die everyday. It's called life. Anyway I just listed probable causes I'll dead by then so meh.

I didn't even talk about what if aliens will have enslaved or killed us as well.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Professional Shitposter

#900

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Spudlandia
Posts: 27,720
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » The Science Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by DragonByte Security (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch