When GRINDING is good…

ElderGnome

ElderGnome

Gnome of the World
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I've spent a good chunk of time in life learning about gaming as it applies to helping people relax, with mental illness, and people with disabilities using gaming to gain back a sense of joy and control in their lives. (My mother, for example, suffers from multiple chronic illnesses and doesn't get out much. Getting her an Alexa and an iPad and explaining to her how to play simple games made a huge difference in her depression levels, and quality of life.)

Right now the ElderGnome is dealing with a bit of his own mental stress, and I keep finding myself coming back to the one game that is just letting me "grind" with little mental input. "Stranger of Sword City" - on Beginner. Doing class changes just to keep grinding, ambushing monsters, and be wildly over-leveled and over-powered for most parts of the game.

I do this because it's relaxing to "grind" - my wife has several hobbies that could be considered "grinding" - like knitting. Or macrame. Or pickling and canning. All things that take a lot of sheer time and energy more than any real mental effort. (Both of us are people with generally high IQs as they're currently tested, and very bad panic/depression disorders that, unfortunately, often go hand in hand with high IQs… I have a family of doctors myself and three suicides in my immediate family; they're either high-functioning or they off themselves.)

So sometimes I say, let me grind. Let my tired 37 year old mind just blur out for a bit on something that doesn't require a lot of mental effort. Let me just do peaceful, repetitive things. Grinding in Stranger of Sword City is like a meditation for me, and I'd be less happy with the game unless it gave me that ability to just… grind. No real story development, nothing I have to pay attention to until I feel like moving the story along.

Anyone else use these types of repetitive games for "grinding" as a way to relax? Could that major complaint of JRPG games in general actually be meditative and soothing to a large population of people?

I'm curious. Do you grind, do you like grinding, or is it just a pointless, boring activity? I will say if you asked me at 25 if I liked grinding, I'd say no. At 37, it's a definite, "Sometimes!"
 
Joined
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High, high up in the mountains of the southwestern
ElderGnome said:
Do you grind, do you like grinding…
Click to expand...
No and no.
If I need to relax I pick a friend out and get drunk (never understood how some people can get drunk alone). I don't do any drugs for ages now, apart from onetime new experience there is nothing else in it and besides it'd be grinding which I hate. Reminds me I didn't smoke pot in years, could get some for old times sakes.
Not saying you should do vice too, especially if you easily panic - I got sick and tired of people who after drugs use become paranoic instead of happy. Even worse they know what happened last time and they don't stop using.

Try to find something, anything, that's not grinding. Even birdwatching would do, sounds silly, but it's not. What about fishing? Does anyone in neighborhood do that? Jogging? It's relaxing, it's not grinding and is good for health.
 
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Grinding is relaxing not for the reasons written in the OP (repetition, small mental efforts etc)

Grinding is characterized by a strong cause to effect relation between effort and reward that provides a deep sense of entitlement.

Put that much effort and the reward is always there. It is distant but secure.
No anguish moist brow from the tension of a stake, of an uncertain outcome, the tension of losing it all from a poor decision.

Gaming, gameplay though, is characterized by the chain of decisions, the quality of them and uncertainty.
Gaming is about tension.

And indeed these days, quite a lot of products try their best to avoid tension as it is the desire of players to avoid tension. Very few products defeat is an accepted outcome.
 
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Personally, I don't think I'd enjoy being over-leveled in RPGs and fighting trivial encounters, but that's just me. Most of my enjoyment in RPGs is in the tension, challenge and movement forward in the advancement systems. Especially in the dungeon-crawlers.

Also, people tell me Elminage Gothic is considered grindy, but I don't see it that way. Usually everything you fight in that game can kill you, quickly.

Bottom line, if you find joy in doing it then that's all that matters. If it stops being fun, stop doing it and try something else. :)
 
Yeah I think it's a combination of both. A relaxing familiar activity and slow push towards a end goal. When I get home from work, especially after a stressful day, it does relax me to pick up my iphone and just veg for a half hour on a game that requires virtually no skill, but where I'm making progress to something. But for me there does need to be a goal, something I'm working towards, like becoming strong enough to beat the next area. Grinding just for the sake of repeating an activity isn't enough to do it for me.
 
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Grinding is bad. There always needs to be an in-game reason to do something instead of just 'to be higher level'. This doesn't really apply to MMOs so that's my only allowance for grind in games. For single-player games, grinding is worse than anything. In fact, first thing I research about a new game (specially console JRPGs) is if grinding is required. If it is, it's immediately scratched off my list, I don't care if it has the best story in the world, or the best combat system, or the best graphics.
 
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Grinding can be good in situations when I don't have energy to read the text or do something that requires my attention or concentration. When I'm too tired for instance. So, I just start to harvest nodes or kill rats, trying to get myself together. But I only do it when this activity does something good for me, like experience, income or rare harvests. I'm not going to kill rats if this activity gives me nothing in return.
 
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​
There is "joyful state" known as "flow" that has been widely studied and is believed to engender happiness and to have long term psychological and productivity benefits. "Flow" is generated by activities that vary widely from person to person. Essentially an individual can be said to be in a state of "flow" when engaged in an activity in which the individual is no longer aware of the passage of time.

See, for example, http://www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/science-of-happiness/getting-in-the-flow/:


[The] loss of self-consciousness that happens when you are completely absorbed in an activity – intellectual, professional, or physical – is described in contemporary psychology as a state of flow. In order for a flow state to occur, you must see the activity as voluntary, enjoyable (intrinsically motivating), and it must require skill and be challenging (but not too challenging) with clear goals towards success. You must feel as though you have control and receive immediate feedback with room for growth. Interestingly, a flow state is characterized by the absence of emotion – a complete loss of self-consciousness –however, in retrospect, the flow activity may be described as enjoyable and even exhilarating!​


It seems quite reasonable that "grinding" could be an activity promoting "flow"…

__
 
I would think playing RPGs in general generates "flow" for most of us. :)
 
ElderGnome said:
I've spent a good chunk of time in life learning about gaming as it applies to helping people relax, with mental illness, and people with disabilities using gaming to gain back a sense of joy and control in their lives. (My mother, for example, suffers from multiple chronic illnesses and doesn't get out much. Getting her an Alexa and an iPad and explaining to her how to play simple games made a huge difference in her depression levels, and quality of life.)

Right now the ElderGnome is dealing with a bit of his own mental stress, and I keep finding myself coming back to the one game that is just letting me "grind" with little mental input. "Stranger of Sword City" - on Beginner. Doing class changes just to keep grinding, ambushing monsters, and be wildly over-leveled and over-powered for most parts of the game.

I do this because it's relaxing to "grind" - my wife has several hobbies that could be considered "grinding" - like knitting. Or macrame. Or pickling and canning. All things that take a lot of sheer time and energy more than any real mental effort. (Both of us are people with generally high IQs as they're currently tested, and very bad panic/depression disorders that, unfortunately, often go hand in hand with high IQs… I have a family of doctors myself and three suicides in my immediate family; they're either high-functioning or they off themselves.)

So sometimes I say, let me grind. Let my tired 37 year old mind just blur out for a bit on something that doesn't require a lot of mental effort. Let me just do peaceful, repetitive things. Grinding in Stranger of Sword City is like a meditation for me, and I'd be less happy with the game unless it gave me that ability to just… grind. No real story development, nothing I have to pay attention to until I feel like moving the story along.

Anyone else use these types of repetitive games for "grinding" as a way to relax? Could that major complaint of JRPG games in general actually be meditative and soothing to a large population of people?

I'm curious. Do you grind, do you like grinding, or is it just a pointless, boring activity? I will say if you asked me at 25 if I liked grinding, I'd say no. At 37, it's a definite, "Sometimes!"
Click to expand...

What is grind or grinding? You need to define it since it has different meaning to different people :)
 
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When I saw the title of this thread, I initially thought it was totally about something else.

Anyways, I guess grinding does have a place in computer games, I know that is how most mmo's sustain themselves these days, and they certainly got that from games prior to their own. I've done it often enough, I'd say I enjoy it more with a group of people than just in a solo game. When I think of grinding in game, Everquest comes to mind before anything else.
 
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i like a good grind. Nothing helps you learn a game's intricacies like repetition too, I like grinding to perfection in the game's techniques. Dark side of grinding tho, is of course that you can accidentally get overpowered and steamroll the rest of the game if you're not careful!

No, seriously - i get you man. Grinding can be good therapy, stress relief. Kill a thousand zombies, overcome a thousand tiny challenges, makes you forget for a while
 
Joined
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Is it even right to call it grinding if you're enjoying it?

I'm WELL past my 30's and I don't enjoy grinding at all. I can get through some of it (especially if there's a baseball game on) but I would rather not.

A hard day's programming can burn my brain so I can barely put an "If" in front of a "then" but gaming (even puzzle games like Talos Principle) seems to use different mental muscles so I can still play them fine. And if I haven't got the energy to even read text then I'm'a goin' to bed! I didn't pick that avatar of mine for nothing, you know!
 
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the act is grinding, i think enjoying it or not while doing is irrelevant. It's working on a deeper psychological level, like working out in a gym makes you feel better emotionally.

Yes, you're making progress in fitness, but you're also overcoming tiny goals and exerting yourself. I dunno....

I wonder what the great philosophers of yore would say about grinding in an MMO :)
 
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I generally don't like grinding. I can tolerate it in aRPGs since they have very fast combat but in turn based games party based games it's absolute deal barker.Overall I consider it a design flaw if game requires you to go to already visited areas and repeat already won fights.
 
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ElderGnome said:
I'm curious. Do you grind, do you like grinding, or is it just a pointless, boring activity? I will say if you asked me at 25 if I liked grinding, I'd say no. At 37, it's a definite, "Sometimes!"
Click to expand...

Interesting thought, and in terms of RPG I would say 'no', but given I am a distance runner and grind out 10+ miles 5-6 days per week ... well ...
 
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I wish games with grinding had an option for non-grinders, so that battles give 50% more exp and 50% more loot and you fight 50% less fights.
 
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Funny. I've just got an idea. What if I compare RPG to book in terms of grinding?
Certainly many books have some long pages with not-so-important or not-so-interesting text that is considered as a filler to make book somewhat thicker and longer. Without the filler you'll get 20 or 30 pages or pure content. With the filler it can be 150 or 200 pages long.
Does that mean that the filler (grinding) is OK as long as it doesn't stop you from reaching the end of the book (game)?

P.S. Same ideas can be apparently applied to films and cinema. You can't make a film 25 minutes long. It has to be at least 60 minutes long. Here comes the filler?
 
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I hate grinding, it makes me feel stressed out as it makes me feel like I'm not doing anything. I have a similar issue with watching TV-series. That said, I do understand why some people like it.
 
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Lev said:
Funny. I've just got an idea. What if I compare RPG to book in terms of grinding?
Certainly many books have some long pages with not-so-important or not-so-interesting text that is considered as a filler to make book somewhat thicker and longer. Without the filler you'll get 20 or 30 pages or pure content. With the filler it can be 150 or 200 pages long.
Does that mean that the filler (grinding) is OK as long as it doesn't stop you from reaching the end of the book (game)?

P.S. Same ideas can be apparently applied to films and cinema. You can't make a film 25 minutes long. It has to be at least 60 minutes long. Here comes the filler?
Click to expand...

I also avoid books with filler content, that's why I given up on Wheel of time and few other series.I can however tolerate it if it's very well written(which is not the case in Wheel of time).
 
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