Baldur's Gate - Enhanced Edition for iPad Announced and More

DArtagnan said:

Unfortunately, all that time and effort does not result in better RPGs. The effort seems to be about how to milk a very large emerging impulse-driven market more than providing deep, long, complex, interesting RPGs because it's somehow a better platform.

That said, the first time I see an iPad/Android/Smartphone RPG that can compete with PC RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout 3, The Witcher, Mass Effect, Drakensang, Titan Quest, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, etc. etc. etc. - I'll start being interested.

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We've discussed this - and I don't disagree. But at the same time, there is no faster moving platform than iOS gaming, particularly on iPad. Please stop lumping smartphones and tablets - they are DIFFERENT. And Android tablets essentially don't exist in terms of market impact.

The $0.99 time wasters still catch the headlines, but more and more people are interested in a deeper experience, so you get things like Ravensmark and all of Jeff Vogel's games and so on as well as several in development.

You talk about "deep, long, complex, interesting RPGs " ... and I agree. But there are perhaps 2 per year - and of those you list Mass Effect is neither deep nor complex (except as a semi-interactive movie wrapped around yet-another-cover-shooter), and there are better action RPGs than Titan Quest on the iPad already! In other words - the RPG genre on the PC is getting shallower in general as iPad games get more and more complex - and they are starting to meet in the middle.

Our market segment - who appreciate deep RPGs - is shrinking as an overall share of the market. That has been true for ages, but in the era of instant gratification it is more true than ever. Just turn on the radio and hear how every pop song has to reveal everything within 30 seconds, whereas in the 70's you could have songs take over a minute just to get going ...

I'm not lumping them together. I'm saying the first time I see an RPG that can match - on one of those platforms, I'll start being interested.

What action RPG on the iPad do you think is better than Titan Quest?

About the RPGs on the PC - I think it's actually the reverse now. After a loooong time of mainstreaming - we're starting to witness a return to "core" values. I predicted this a while ago, and just look at games like Fallout 3, Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Deus Ex 3 - and games like that. Now, with the Kickstarter model, it's going to be even more like that.

You're kidding yourself if you think a real RPG game designer would prefer the iPad as his dream gaming platform. That's for people into the money - not the art. Oh, they'll support it if it means more money - but it won't be the platform of choice for those who care about the art.

Not to say that mainstreaming has stopped - but the audience is slowly changing - and a significant portion is ready for more than simplicity and streamlining.

Skyrim sold 10+ million copies

You can, of course, argue that Skyrim is a maintream game - and in some ways you're right. But since I consider it my personal best game of all time - it must have some core stuff that I like, and I even like several mainstream aspects of most modern games.

As for iPad games getting more and more complex, that may very well be true. As I said, the first time I see a single game that can compete with my GIGANTIC backlog of fantastic PC games - I'll start being interested. I'm not denying it's possible - but that it has actually happened yet.

About Mass Effect, I'm not saying it's a complex game - but it's a great game. It's also a game that will never happen on such a small device. Not because of the technical limitations, but because of the size of the screen and the cinematic nature of the experience. The level of immersion.

Once you start hooking up the iPad to a large screen and games start to meaningfully support that - I'm sure such things will happen. But it'd be naive to expect this market to evolve in a predictable or linear fashion. In 10 years - we'll have something no one can imagine today, except those sitting and dreaming it up for creation

In short:

The reason the Tablet/Smartphone gaming market is moving so fast, is because you don't have to invest much to generate a relatively large return. It's as simple as that.

The reason that expansion will rarely (if ever) result in a truly competitive RPG (competing with modern console/PC RPGs) - is that you don't NEED to compete to get people to pay 5$

The audience is the problem - because they'll swallow anything at that price. They will even be ready to tell themselves that these new games are just as good as a PC/Console game - because it gives them a reason to spend money and something to enjoy that doesn't seem to ruin them.

It's utterly basic psychology - and it's about the impulse. It's exactly the same as when people buy 5 times the shit they need in the supermarket - because it's on sale. It's not because they actually need - or even really want it. It's because people are, basically, quite ignorant.

DArtagnan said:

But it'd be naive to expect this market to evolve in a predictable or linear fashion.

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This could have been your 'in short'

And I totally agree!

txa1265 said:

Every time you type you show your ignorance and bias. So to turn the question, why would you talk about Apple products when you demonstrably have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

If you don't realize that more time, energy and money is being spent on RPGs for iPad than for the PC, well, time to wake up. The reason? More actual money being made, less piracy, and a better conversion of time to money. And developers will follow the money …

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Oh great, the I can't dispute anything you said so i'll resort to personal attacks reply. Very common on the web but not so common on the watch. So it's a little disappointing.

Where did I demonstrate I don't know what i'm talking about?

Can you play skyrim, the witcher etc. etc. on mac without 3rd party programs (bootcamp) Which by the way would require a version of windows to dual boot. Which is where you'd actually play the game in windows. If your talking strictly ipad it won't play any of those games at all. That's true so I fail to see the ignorance there.

Would BG not be the best rpg on the ipad when released? I guess that's just an opinion but it's one I feel pretty good about. So, no ignorance there either.

As far as bias I have none I owned an iphone and have bought both my sons iphones. I got rid of my iphone because of apples one size fits all mentality for phones. If you want bigger screens, stylus or a physical keyboard then iphone offers you no options. My brother is a big apple fan and has 2 ipads I borrowed 1 for a week to see if it was something i'd be interested in getting. I found that ipad had nothing to offer me that I didn't already have to justify a $500 to $700 investment.

As far as development time and money. There is stuff being developed right now that no one even knows about. Are you honestly saying you know how much time and money is being spent for each platform by every developer on the rpg genre? You must be better connected in the gaming industry more than……..Well, anyone else.

I have no brand loyalty. Intel vs AMD, Nvidia vs AMD, PC vs Console, Pc vs mac or PS3 vs Xbox etc. etc.I don't care, I go with whatever offers me the best rpg gaming experience today, not 5 years from now. if in 5 years the ipad offers the best experience then I will show my bias by promptly picking one up.

The fact that you got worked up enough to attack me personally shows me that you are the one with the bias, not me.

DArtagnan said:

In short:

The reason the Tablet/Smartphone gaming market is moving so fast, is because you don't have to invest much to generate a relatively large return. It's as simple as that.

The reason that expansion will rarely (if ever) result in a truly competitive RPG (competing with modern console/PC RPGs) - is that you don't NEED to compete to get people to pay 5$

The audience is the problem - because they'll swallow anything at that price. They will even be ready to tell themselves that these new games are just as good as a PC/Console game - because it gives them a reason to spend money and something to enjoy that doesn't seem to ruin them.

It's utterly basic psychology - and it's about the impulse. It's exactly the same as when people buy 5 times the shit they need in the supermarket - because it's on sale. It's not because they actually need - or even really want it. It's because people are, basically, quite ignorant.

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If they'll swallow anything at that price why not raise the price? Why not create a premium and more competitive market if you are Apple or a game designer? Why not compete with few games out there like battle academy in this emerging market rather than price it at $5. What you say makes no sense because no one is forcing them to price games so low, Apple has encouraged it in the iTunes music industry and possibly college textbooks recently (at only $15) but I don't know if they ever have in games. And why would Apple invite it companies like Epic to their keynotes if all they wanted was $.99 time wasters and had o additional plans?

Well a lot of those games, ESP ports of wrpgs, are venerating as good as other Japanese portable gaming systems IMO. And that's really the only other choice if you want to game heavily on the go without an extra mouse and battery charger to carry with you.

DArtagnan said:

Unfortunately, all that time and effort does not result in better RPGs. The effort seems to be about how to milk a very large emerging impulse-driven market more than providing deep, long, complex, interesting RPGs because it's somehow a better platform.

That said, the first time I see an iPad/Android/Smartphone RPG that can compete with PC RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout 3, The Witcher, Mass Effect, Drakensang, Titan Quest, Dragon Age, Deus Ex, etc. etc. etc. - I'll start being interested. Oh, and I'm not talking about remakes of already existing PC games.

Of course, for the people heavy into convenience and reliving 15 year old rehashes or 5-10 hour "it's cool what can be done on a small device" games - it's another story.

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The thing is dedicated portables can't compete with those types of games either, and no one can because they cost millions to produce and make or break big studios. On the other hand, ports of older games like arcanum and Baldur's gate are definitely possible on the iPad or dedicated portables. Would you rather play a vita game or Baldur's gate on the iPad?

AppleIntimidation said:

If they'll swallow anything at that price why not raise the price? Why not create a premium and more competitive market if you are Apple or a game designer? Why not compete with few games out there like battle academy in this emerging market rather than price it at $5. What you say makes no sense because no one is forcing them to price games so low, Apple has encouraged it in the iTunes music industry and possibly college textbooks recently (at only $15) but I don't know if they ever have in games. And why would Apple invite it companies like Epic to their keynotes if all they wanted was $.99 time wasters and had o additional plans?

Well a lot of those games, ESP ports of wrpgs, are venerating as good as other Japanese portable gaming systems IMO. And that's really the only other choice if you want to game heavily on the go without an extra mouse and battery charger to carry with you.

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I thought it was pretty basic and obvious.

Why? Because the lower the price - the more will buy on impulse. It's an IMPULSE driven market.

As soon as you raise the price - you make people think, and you don't want people to think unless you truly have something to offer them.

AppleIntimidation said:

The thing is dedicated portables can't compete with those types of games either, and no one can because they cost millions to produce and make or break big studios. On the other hand, ports of older games like arcanum and Baldur's gate are definitely possible on the iPad or dedicated portables. Would you rather play a vita game or Baldur's gate on the iPad?

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Why are you talking about dedicated portables as if they're relevant to the discussion?

I haven't seen anything here that changes my mind that PCs are the best gaming platform for me. But that may change. We'll see..

Thrasher said:

I haven't seen anything here that changes my mind that PCs are the best gaming platform for me. But that may change. We'll see..

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The way I look at it is this: can you see something like an iPad taking over nearly all of your general computing? If not, it isn't worthwhile.

Look even deeper - are all-mobile? Have you been laptop-only for at least a couple of years and use a smartphone for more than just phone and text? If not, definitely forget about it.

I really think you need to be positioned to fully interact with a tablet before even considering it as a full gaming platform. If you think of it as a toy, then it IS a toy for you - just like laptops and netbooks and smartphones and so on.

It also depends on the game type you like. I do a heck of a lot of gaming on my iPad ... but as a lover of classic RPG and FPS games, I always come back to the PC (or Mac) for those. Developers simply haven't figured out how to deliver that experience yet - or at least haven't done the value prop yet.

But I have also seen some definite change and movement in the mobile market over the last 3 or so years since the 'app explosion' started. With games like Avadon in the top 20 RPGs for several weeks - and at $10 ... that means that many people are interested - and willing to pay.

I am not a mobile gamer. I always game at home. It's rare that I have idle time sitting away from home that I could put towards mobile gaming on a pad or other mobile device. Wouldn't gaming while driving on the freeway be a scary thought? Although some drivers seem almost that distracted with their mobile devices. Anyway, if my situation changes, I'll reconsider.

Thrasher, Avadaon is as good as all those games you listed or others in this thread.

WTF are you referring to?

AppleIntimidation said:

Thrasher, Avadaon is as good as all those games you listed or others in this thread.

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Thrasher said:

WTF are you referring to?

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+1 to that!

Look - I love Jeff and his games like Avadon, and have played the heck out of the new/old Avernum on four platforms ... and when it comes to certain things they are excellent. They are better hardcore story-based RPGs than Oblivion or Two Worlds, for example. But that isn't what those games try to deliver.

If you look at the last decade (since 'decline of the PC' became 'a thing') and there are ~2-5 games a year worth playing in our genre. There is not yet anything comparable to those games on the iPad. Period.

That doesn't mean that it has to STAY that way - the innovation and change in 3.5 years on the app store outstrips any other platform by about 1000x. But there is still a long way to go.

Avadon better than Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Fallout 3, Dragon Age, etc.?

Uhm, sure.

It's one of the better throwbacks to ancient times - and the graphics are but dull and lifeless - rather than downright ugly. The controls are clunky and the atmosphere barely exists. But sure, it has some interesting combat and a readable story.

But… Let's stay in the realm of the real.

If Avadon is the best you've got - I have to say there's a loooooong way to go

Here is another full blown PC game available for less than $10 that got great review scores:
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=128270

Or you can play Mario and uncharted games on other portable game systems like vita and 3ds. The choice is yours.

Yeah, another ancient game remade with a subpar interface to make a buck! Why do I even need a PC - when I can go back in time like this!

Older PC games are better than new PC games watered down too fit console ports anyway. I'd much rather play Starcraft or age of empires or Baldur's gate than something like dragons age 2.

Also, personally I've never played this game or beat Baldur's gate fully or battle academy. I hate pcs and learning keyboard shortcuts, and my uncomfortable desk in the middle of the living room with everyone walking by. so for me these are brand new games I wouldn't experience otherwise