Is the MMO genre dead?

blatantninja said:

How hard is it for a total noob to get started? The extent of my DnD experience is a million replays of BG (and I still am mediocre at combat), NWN2 and a few abortive attempts at NWN.

Click to expand...

We're breaking Alrik in right now and it seems to be working out OK. He had played the game previously and returned to it but started new toons so it's functionally like being a noob. Knowing the PnP rules isn't necessarily useful anyway- the implementation of the game has some differences such as "single role" toons generally being better than multiclass, as Alrik has discovered. The nice thing about jumping in with the group is that you'll get lots of help getting thru the quests without feeling completely useless. Plus, since most of the group has over a decade together in the game, we shuffle tons of good gear to the new players which gives you a jump start.

I would encourage you to jump into the Team Corwin thread and see what's what. If you do decide to jump in, make sure you join on the Khyber server since that's where we all play. Even if you want to pplay the game solo, I would join the RPGWatch guild to get access to our guild buffs and transportation.

I must agree that I get LOTS of help from my fellow Team Corwin mates !

My very first experienjce into BG was like … I didn't understand anything. So, I gave up after leaving the first town, because enemies became too hard for me, and I couldn't figure out, why.

So, (A)D&D has always been a "red flag" for me, but Team Corwin showed me that it can be fun, too !

The only real drawback I find is that this is nothing for people with a Dyscalculia like me. Only people good in maths profit from that well.

I even had severe problems when playing 4th edition pen & paper TDE, but in "my" group that was okay, because they greatly helped me.

I think that having a handicap isn't bad as long as people are willing to help.


The only other thing about (A)D&D I found is that it still breathes heavily the "wargames" legacy, because it mostly plays like a simulation. That's why there's so much math is involved.

One can of course play it in "storyteller mode" with reduced rules as well, but I don't think that there are many real "storyteller" pen & paper role playing games out there. I mean, games in which people could shine with a lack of math, but with good storyteller skills - so quite the opposite of (A)D&D and other simulation rule sets.

Just for completeness' sake : The German publisher of TDE also currently publishes the German language translation of a pure storyteller pen & paper role play system : It's called "Tails Of Equestria", and I don't think I'd find people willing to play it.

Carnifex said:

After living in the MMO genre for over fifteen years, it's pretty much kaput for me, save for testing on Pantheon. And it's likely to stay that way.

Click to expand...

The Fortnight hype tells me otherwise … And yes, to me it seems to be an MMO.

I have math problem aswell I tried DDO, but it wasn't good solo experience. But still it makes me curious - I would think that with Path of Exile and other level autogenerated group content it would be pretty much dead end for MMOs, but still your group seems to be enjoying it a lot - why is that? You don't mind doing the same levels over and over with lower (even lower than LOTRO) quality of models and levels? This is really interesting for me - if I would be a manager in SSG, I would close it down as outdated and obviously I would do that because I don't play the game, so I don't know why it is good for someone. Judging from LOTRO I would say the classes are superb.

I wonder if New World from Amazon will breathe some life into MMOs. It has been delayed a bunch to add end-game content. It gets a full release next month and is going through beta-testing right now. People seem to like the combat but are not sure about everything else.

Hastar said:

I wonder if New World from Amazon will breathe some life into MMOs. It has been delayed a bunch to add end-game content. It gets a full release next month and is going through beta-testing right now. People seem to like the combat but are not sure about everything else.

Click to expand...

Yeah, Amazon's attempts to break into the gaming market have been an absolute charlie-foxtrot, to an astonishing degree. They've flushed terrifying amounts of cash down the loo with several abortive projects, and the whole thing seems to be run by people that have no idea what they're doing. I think their LOTR MMO was the latest one to have the plug pulled.

New World looks like their best effort so far (having been completely redesigned), but my instinct is that it will be a mediocrity, at best.

Dafela said:

I have math problem aswell I tried DDO, but it wasn't good solo experience. But still it makes me curious - I would think that with Path of Exile and other level autogenerated group content it would be pretty much dead end for MMOs, but still your group seems to be enjoying it a lot - why is that? You don't mind doing the same levels over and over with lower (even lower than LOTRO) quality of models and levels? This is really interesting for me - if I would be a manager in SSG, I would close it down as outdated and obviously I would do that because I don't play the game, so I don't know why it is good for someone. Judging from LOTRO I would say the classes are superb.

Click to expand...

DDO is older than LOTRO, and graphically, it shows.

I decided not to play LOTRO because I rather cling to my "headcinema" I had when i was reading the books. I want them to be in my memory like that.

The group play is justfun to me, because it's … a bit like hanging around with folks you know well, know they won't be toxic, and just give you the feeling as if it is a good thing to follow a group's goal. Because at the end of every quest, there's usually a chest, but the quests are often so designed that everything is just better - more fun - but also harder so that it requires a group effort - when playing as a group.

I solo DDO a lot, though, as well.

There are for example traps. Some are so deadly that a trapper is *required* to sghut them down.

A healer is required for heals, obviously.

For my personal taste, there still is too much fighting in it, too much like an Action-RPG. On the other hand, people most likely wouldn't want an MMO with only diplomacy and communication in it. It would go too far if I was trying why I believe this is so.

Of course, grouping is like a "bag of wonders" : You never know what you'll get. Ages ago, I was grouping regularly, but I just don't want that these days. It's a shame, really, because some things like the so-called "Challenges" are so much easier as a group.

There is "reincarnation", but for me, it's far, far away now. I don't plan to do that, and there is so much content in DDO that it takes a looooooong time to get throu everything. This can be challenging as well, though. Like … me trying to get to know *every* corner in the Castle of Barovia … It took me 4 hours … Or, last weekend, The Restless Isles … 2 looooooooong quests … several hours … because of the equally long way to that quest …

So far, I'm content with the content.

It's the only fantasy setting with pirates, and that makes it imho unique in my eyes.

Well pirates does sound good.
I think GW2 was the only MMO which was trying to do something else than just mindless hitting mobs - you could do patrols, NPCs lived there and you was helping them through events. But all MMOs go from one extreme to another and then they say it doesn't work. I just wish to be able to be immersed in the world and that does require all the details of ordinary NPCs. But I always hit some wall of certain groups with their agencies, so it feels almost impossible.

I recently read a player in the DDO forum saying - the usual mumbo-jumbo - that if things weren't turning for the better, players would go over to Final Fantasy - the MMO.

I see with this posting now that there is a kind of players to whom the setting is nothing, and to whom only mechanics and combat counts.

To me, these players are like "content locusts" (term not by me), who travel like herds from MMO to MMO and try to get the best they want from that. Which is solely mechanics & combat.

Me, I'm quite the opposite of that : To me, the setting is everything, mechanics play a minor role, and combat only insofar that I'll never touch pure battle-games.

I found this take on the New World MMO quite funny.

Is it RPG MMO so in every that the forums are dominated by the people who are playing "end content" ?

They are the loudest that is for sure.

That's pretty much my experience, at least the last few times that I've ventured back into either EQ1 or two. People race to level up for the end content/raids, then seldom log on after achieving that. To experience something else, you might have to try perhaps a newer game.

It is the same everywhere. One would say that pure "endgame" based action games would supply that, still those players are in MMOs they don't even like complaning about DLCs they would have to buy to reach "endgame" even if with sub you get most of it for free and in LOTRO you could get it for free by playing the game. You could level up in skirmishes instances. Maybe ESO solution with paid pure dungeon DLCs are the best. LOTRO could do that aswell - instead of that mess with packs and expansions just have bundles for different players. But here we go again with MMO managers "formulas" how everyone has to play everything. And as I learned roleplayers are divided by elitists, who will destroy anything Skyrim like, so we will never get RP DLCs, because they will say they want stories, which has nothing nothing to do with roleplaying, sure you can react to that, you can react to anything, but it is not something you can choose to do as your role in the world. And managers will never allow to create such roles and factions, because that would support alts not finishing the game. So we will be stack with endgame for only certain players and boring repetitive zones and talk about dying MMOs. White FF MMO prosper.
I guess I'm annoying with my agency But this is my dream - if I would have the money I would create such world. But then I see all the indies with their dreams and it is just desperate.

With me, it's all about the people you play the games and enjoy together. I think to jump into any MMO these days I'd pretty much have to have a solid base of mates together before trying that, as I know to simply play by myself will lead to tedium, boredom, and then quitting.

NeverKnowsBest has his own analysis and answer to the question. It's long but very instructive.



0:00 Introduction
3:13 Part One - The First MMO
27:47 Part Two - The Golden Age
57:44 Part Three - The Game that Changed Everything
1:26:40 Part Four - The Next Big Thing
1:59:12 Part Five - The Dark Age
2:31:29 Part Six - The Current Situation

Both EQ one and two are ramping up next month for TLP/TLE servers to commence. For the first time in a decade or more, I won't be doing either this go around. I believe I'm done with both games unless servers come along that are completely divorced from the current live situations.

And I don't ever see that happening.

When I watched this, I had some regrets about WoW, I should have tried that instead of EQ2. But the friends who were playing MMOs were there, maybe that's what really counts.

I'm glad I didn't go down that vicious circle.

I like how NNB classifies Star Citizen as one of the failures without any ambiguity. Bam!

If anyone is interested, NeverKnowsBest released a follow-up video, How to save the MMO genre once and for all.

I have made up a rule for myself :

"Every MMO gets simplified over time, especially the more, when subscriber numbers become smaller".

I call this the NGE effect, and SWTOR has that to a great deal, too. The early SWTOR was so much more complex. As was SWG.

The only problem is that SWTOR and DDO are the only MMOs I've ever played (and still do play), hence I have no information in how far my rule applies to other MMOs as well.

There might be, however, MMOs which are simplified from the start.

It's nearly dead - but it has infinite potential.

It's just that no one is even close to tapping it.

Well, except Star Citizen - and, to a much lesser extent, Ashes of Creation.