Grimoire

I gave up on objectivity over a decade ago. We all view things through our own reality tunnels. It's amazing we can communicate at all.

As for being in control, I think you're craaaaaazy!!

 
As for Grimoire, I've never believed anything about it one way or the other.

I simply want to know with reasonable certainty if it's worth my time.

When people claimed 600 hours without actual knowledge - I specifically pointed out that it was far from certain.

Now, people are claiming no more than 80-100 hours based on early reviews and some early feedback from first finishers.

I'm now pointing out that's far from certain, too.

People are different and they play games differently as a result. That's all I'm saying.

The one thing I refuse to do is "pick a side" in a ridiculous battle that I have zero interest in.

Not only don't I care about Cleve (beyond wanting everyone to be treated fairly) - I do NOT pick sides without knowledge I can't possibly have.

Apparently, I'm pretty much alone in that around here when it comes to Cleve and Grimoire.

I'm not ashamed of that, though :)
 
I gave up on objectivity over a decade ago. We all view things through our own reality tunnels. It's amazing we can communicate at all.

As for being in control, I think you're craaaaaazy!!


Being objective is not about knowing the truth - it's about accepting that you don't know the truth.

One example would be accepting that you don't actually know how long Grimoire is, right now.
 
I'm not picking sides. I'm also skeptical. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. :)

But if reviews start rolling in with 400 hours talking about extreme amounts of meaningful content, I'll start be-cleving.
 
I'm not picking sides. I'm also skeptical. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a duck. :)

But if reviews start rolling in with 400 hours talking about extreme amounts of meaningful content, I'll start be-cleving.

You certainly seem to have a lot of faith in the quacks of early ducks :)

Fair enough, maybe you're right.

I wouldn't know.
 
None of us know. Early signs don't look good, though. But we will see.

Well, we both agreed that TES games have enough content for hundreds of hours - and yet early finishers were done in 20-30 hours.

I guess that wouldn't look good to you, either.

Personally, I don't think 600 hours is realistic for Grimoire - simply based on the amount of work it would have taken to create that much interesting content.

80-100 hours would be more than enough for me, if those hours are full of fun and interesting stuff.

So, I don't think it's looking bad no matter what.

But I still can't get a grasp on the actual quality of the content. I don't really expect others to tell me, though.

I'm going to have to wait for a sale.

Not that the game is particularly appealing to me. I AM in the mood for an old-school game - but I don't think Grimoire will keep my attention for long - no matter how good it really is.

Too archaic and quirky for my standards, I'm afraid.

Still, I'm curious.
 
The description on the store page says it's "possible to spend 600 hours on a single playthrough". I always take such things with a pinch of salt (more interested in other measures like the number of classes and a rough idea of the size of the world to explore), but it clearly is possible to spend that amount of time in a large game with (optional) infinite encounters and very high xp requirements for the higher levels.

From what I've seen, most people say 100-200 hours depending on how many of the early exploits they use (which Cleve seems to be gradually sorting out). One person spent 100 hours on 10% of the game but they weren't using any walkthroughs and were figuring all the puzzles out on their own.

Whether one does spend 100 hours or 600 hours, I think it's reasonable to say it's a substantial game, and it also comes with multiple different possible starting areas and endings, which adds some replayability. What's more important imo is whether this style of 90s-vintage game appeals to you or not.
 
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The description on the store page says it's "possible to spend 600 hours on a single playthrough". I always take such things with a pinch of salt (more interested in other measures like the number of classes and a rough of idea of the size of the world to explore), but it clearly is possible to spend that amount of time in a large game with (optional) infinite encounters and very high xp requirements for the higher levels.

From what I've seen, most people say 100-200 hours depending on how many of the early exploits they use (which Cleve seems to be gradually sorting out). One person spent 100 hours on 10% of the game but they weren't using any walkthroughs and were figuring all the puzzles out on their own.

Whether one does spend 100 hours or 600 hours, I think it's reasonable to say it's a substantial game, and it also comes with multiple different possible starting areas and endings, which adds some replayability. What's more important imo is whether this style of 90s-vintage game appeals to you or not.

Precisely, it will depend on the player and playstyle - but no matter what, the game certainly doesn't seem like a scam or some kind of cash-grab.

Well, if it is - then it must be the least efficient cash-grab in the history of cash-grabs :)

Now, I haven't seen the exact wording of the 600 hour thing elsewhere (in that trailer, for instance), but unless he's saying it's a guarenteed playtime - that doesn't smell like an overt lie.
 
I personally could care less about whether the game actually has 600 hours or not. I mean it's clearly a long game, and 80 is hours is more than enough, I don't think I'd actually want to play a 600 hour game. And compared to all the times Cleve has blatantly lied in the past, whether he exaggerated the game time on a game that's already quite long is not going to change my opinion of him at all.

I'm much more concerned by all the report about how unfinished the game is after you finish the first area. Having the game be long isn't meaningful if your spending most of the time wandering through empty dungeons and incomplete quest chains.
 
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I'm fine with 80-100 hours too. That's not really the point. The point is, if you claim a game has 600 hours of content in a playthrough, I'd like the end result to at least be around that number. You know, honesty. That is what makes a developer credible and shows good will towards their customers.

If/when it's patched and $10-15, I might buy it and play it for that 80-100 hours. I just find it very curious that he'd advertise the game as a 600 hour behemoth when that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
 
Grimoire has an option to turn off all random encounters. And many people avail themselves of that. That wasn't an option in 80/90s games such as Wiz. Without random encounters, you can rest up where and when you want and generally rush through the game, if you like that sort of thing, without bothering about things such as safe havens. So if the question is are there 600 hours of rushed gameplay with just scripted encounters? Then the answer is obviously no. But, if you are asking about how long it might take if you play the game old schule style, then it isn't so clear. Today we just don't have the patience to play that way - we no longer map every square on graph paper, as we had to do, because Cleve has thoughtfully provided a very effective automap and we don't have to battle our way to safe spots cos you can turn all that off. And you can lookup the solution to all puzzles somewhere on the web - whereas before the web we were nearly completely reliant on our own resources. So really this whole argument is specious, because you just are not comparing like with like.
 
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I'm fine with 80-100 hours too. That's not really the point. The point is, if you claim a game has 600 hours of content in a playthrough, I'd like the end result to at least be around that number. You know, honesty. That is what makes a developer credible and shows good will towards their customers.

Yeah but this is Cleve. We have already known for a very long time that he is dishonest and doesn't treat his customers with respect. Whether he happens to be telling the truth about that one things doesn't change it.
 
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If this wasn't this Cleve guy's game and Todd Howard made a 600 hour comment this site would crash from ppl trying to post negative comments. Lol.
 
Let me add one point about the testing. Cleve had a group of testers back in the beta days and I was one of them. Then he decided to stab me in the back and insult my integrity so I quit. Much of what is being currently reported existed then and Cleve knew about it because we told him about it and he recognised there were issues he needed to fix. I doubt he really did very much extra with the game in all the years since then!!
 
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@Dart, if you're going to critique people whom you call experts and make out how much smarter you are than them, your point might come across more believable if one of those people you were criticizing wasn't someone whose somehow managed to run this site for 11 years.

Of course, the smart thing to do is

a) don't argue to with a brick wall like Dart, Cleve or people like them who fashion responses at the top of their head which make sense only to them and always do it because they feel grossly compelled to

b) do argue with them for the lolz

On another note, Joel or Mike?
 
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Much of what is being currently reported existed then and Cleve knew about it because we told him about it and he recognised there were issues he needed to fix. I doubt he really did very much extra with the game in all the years since then!!

I suspected as much. There's no way this is anything near an actual 20 year development cycle. It probably sat untouched on a hard drive for years.
 
Let me add one point about the testing. Cleve had a group of testers back in the beta days and I was one of them. Then he decided to stab me in the back and insult my integrity so I quit. Much of what is being currently reported existed then and Cleve knew about it because we told him about it and he recognised there were issues he needed to fix. I doubt he really did very much extra with the game in all the years since then!!

Some of the issues were reported to him even longer ago then that, back when he released the beta version some 20 years ago. There are at least a couple issues that Cleve promised years and years that he had already fixed in the live version which it turns out are still in the current version.
 
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@Dart, if you're going to critique people whom you call experts and make out how much smarter you are than them, your point might come across more believable if one of those people you were criticizing wasn't someone whose somehow managed to run this site for 11 years.

It's not about being smarter than you. I'm not smarter :)

Well, it depends on how you define smarter, I suppose. To me, there are many ways of being smart - and I know for a fact that I'm an idiot in several of those ways.

This is about being rational versus irrational. Emotionally biased versus reasonably neutral and objective.

My ego doesn't really take much part in these debates - which is why it's easy to focus on the subject - and not what I want to be true.

Also, what's your point about running this site for 11 years? I have no idea what you mean by that.

First of all, running a site like this is exceptionally easy in technical terms. The challenge is bothering to do it in terms of the work-load, because it can be a very ungrateful job.

However, I assume Myrthos is running the site because he wants to run it - and because he's enjoying it.

If not, then he should certainly stop.

Of course, the smart thing to do is

You're very right. That was my point to Myrthos.

For whatever reason, he can't help himself on occasion and - like you - he enters the occasional argument.

But it doesn't really take more than one or two exchanges before he loses interest and starts the usual song about "how little he actually cares" and then a little cute derogatory remark.

Again, like you, his ego is too big a part of it.

That's why it takes so much energy.

If you don't want to exchange with a "brick wall" - then don't even start.

The stupid thing to do would be to start and then give up immediately because you're annoyed that I actually have a point.

That's not really on me, is it. I certainly won't take responsibility for it - and I most certainly don't care if you're running the site or not.

In my eyes, we're all equal and of equal value. That doesn't mean I like what you have to say - or that I'm going to not speak my mind. That's just my way.
 
If this wasn't this Cleve guy's game and Todd Howard made a 600 hour comment this site would crash from ppl trying to post negative comments. Lol.

That's because Todd actually has an influence :)

Cleve was always a complete bullshit artist. I have no idea why people are surprised.

Even so, he clearly created a big game full of stuff to find.

That means that some of his bullshit wasn't entirely bullshit.

Personally, I don't play games because I'm in the love with developer. I mean, it's not like I'm entering a relationship with him.

Also, I'm not really aware of what goes on in Cleve's head - and I assume he wasn't born with a great desire to deceive the world around him.

People become who they are for a reason - and unless you know what that reason is, I highly recommend not judging or condemning them outright. You can condemn their actions - but try to avoid making it personal, because chances are you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

As for honest marketing, please. I mean, is that even a thing anymore?

Apparently, he said you COULD spend 600 hours with it. That's not a lie - no matter how small it is.

Do you feel personally betrayed because of that claim, based on what strangers who finished it now are saying? Ok, cool.

I find that ridiculous.

To me, it's about whether the game is worth the price or not. Currently, it's definitely not worth it.

If there's a significant price drop - then 80-100 hours of decent old-school content might just be worth it. It might not be the miracle game the fans wanted it to be - but it could be pretty good.

But but, to each his own.
 
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