Cyberpunk 2077 - Preview @ IGN

IGN checked out Cyberpunk 2077:

Cyberpunk 2077: The Final Preview

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I'm skipping pretty much all previews at this point. I know almost nothing about the story or how the game starts, and I intend to keep it that way until I actually play it.

I read their written piece on their preview session. It all sounded pretty great, except for the combat, which they said was very bullet-spongy. Bit of a shame, but I can probably deal with it if the game is otherwise excellent.

Well since the physical console versions leaked yesterday it's a given it will not be delayed again. My hype meter is on red and I'm ready to play it on December 10th.

Originally Posted by Ripper
I read their written piece on their preview session. It all sounded pretty great, except for the combat, which they said was very bullet-spongy. Bit of a shame, but I can probably deal with it if the game is otherwise excellent.

I feel like an RPG shooter has to be bullet spongy, to an extent, or it's not using stats so much as just player skill (the skill to put a cursor on an enemy's head and click a button). If it takes 3 minutes to take down a grunt that might be an issue for me, but I don't think that's the case at all.

Originally Posted by JFarrell71
I feel like an RPG shooter has to be bullet spongy, to an extent, or it's not using stats so much as just player skill (the skill to put a cursor on an enemy's head and click a button). If it takes 3 minutes to take down a grunt that might be an issue for me, but I don't think that's the case at all.

Hopefully it's nothing like Destiny and Division. Those games are poster child's for bullet sponges gone wrong, but I agree one shot kills would be a bad thing in RPGs.

Imagine fighting a high level boss and pop one shot to the head he's dead.

Originally Posted by JFarrell71
I feel like an RPG shooter has to be bullet spongy, to an extent, or it's not using stats so much as just player skill (the skill to put a cursor on an enemy's head and click a button). If it takes 3 minutes to take down a grunt that might be an issue for me, but I don't think that's the case at all.

Yeah, I think there are other possible ways to handle it, but when mixing a traditional RPG system of hitpoints with shooter gameplay, bullet sponges are going to be the result. But unfortunately for me, that doesn't make spongy shooter gameplay any more enjoyable.

It did seem slightly bullet spongy in some of the footage I've seen, but I think the damage indicators being turned on contributed to that.

I think it's a difficult line to walk in games like this. Give the enemies too much health and it's bullet spongy, but give them too little and they go down fast and then the player feels less accomplished.

I get that some people want more realism, but taking out enemies in 1-2 shots really isn't that fun for a lot of gamers.

Originally Posted by Ripper
Yeah, I think there are other possible ways to handle it, but when mixing a traditional RPG system of hitpoints with shooter gameplay, bullet sponges are going to be the result. But unfortunately for me, that doesn't make spongy shooter gameplay any more enjoyable.

The ground CP loses in the feel of its gun gameplay should be at least in part made up by the existence of such a wide variety of weapons/cyberware/approaches to combat.

I actually prefer it when RPGs in a modern or future setting use a tactical turn-based style. In that context, it doesn't bother me. There's just something about action shooting to whittle down health points that doesn't do it for me. So, I guess I just find that a fundamental drawback of an RPG action shooter.

Well not every RPG can be turn-based. Sorry just wanted to say that again. Anyhow it could be implemented with how it was done in Yakuza: Like a Dragon.

Basically it would play like a RPG action shooter but seamlessly enters TB for combat.

I think CDPR is shooting (no pun intended) for more immersion which is why they chose to go with first-person this time. Stopping the flow of the game to go into a TB mode doesn't really lend itself to that imo.

I assume shots miss, graze, etc., so takes a bit more.

I do like survival mode in FO4 where there is less spongy-ness, especially lower levels. My guy gets one-hit if I am not careful and likewise I can one-hit a lot of enemies.

I think they got the balance pretty nice. Probably why I enjoy combat in FO so much and still play it all the time. Skyrim combat I was never too big on.

Originally Posted by Couchpotato
Well not every RPG can be turn-based. Sorry just wanted to say that again. Anyhow it could be implemented with how it was done in Yakuza: Like a Dragon.

Basically it would play like a RPG action shooter but seamlessly enters TB for combat.

Yeah, and I'm not saying they should have taken a turn-based approach for Cyberpunk - just that for me, the mix of gunplay and hitpoints is less jarring in that context, so it's less problematic for modern settings.

I think there are other ways to mix action shooting with RPG mechanics without bullet-sponging - more enemies at once that are more deadly, more plausibly bullet-proof enemy types, and so on. But it's probably difficult to balance.

Gah do I wait for patches, or play day 1? If we weren't in a zombie plague I'd probably have the patience to hold out…

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory
Gah do I wait for patches, or play day 1? If we weren't in a zombie plague I'd probably have the patience to hold out…

The biggest patch will be on day 1, so win win!

Originally Posted by ChaosTheory
Gah do I wait for patches, or play day 1? If we weren't in a zombie plague I'd probably have the patience to hold out…

I'm definitely not waiting. This is one I know I'll replay in the future after I upgrade my system. Plus, if it's anything like TW3, there will be quite a bit of DLC which I won't get to experience on my first run.

I was supposed to start a discussion about the "bullet sponginess" of RPGs with the title "Five headshots will do". It can be expanded to sword games too and I think it boils down to how leveling often breaks the immersion in open-world RPGs. The Witcher 3 was suffering from this too and so are most RPGs out there. Kingdom Come made an attempt to solve the problem and it did kind of work: that "hit points" are related to gear rather than character level. Another one is that the character becomes better (more moves, more armor damage, etc.) at using a weapon but weapons should still be deadly to "naked" enemies regardless of the level. And now I am talking about real-time action RPGs, not the ones with a turn-based mode. The TB itself could break the immersion.

Perhaps I am mumbling in my beard here since I have thought this quite a bit and don't have the time to write an extended version to explain what I mean…Perhaps the point here was that this is an interesting discussion

A note to my point above. Here is my prediction for CP2077. Try it out and report once the game is out.

Find a high-level enemy early in the game and a clitch in the game that allows you accurately aim the head of this enemy with a weapon so that the enemy reacts minimally. Keep on shooting the head and count how many shots you need to kill the enemy. Load and come back later when you have leveled up. Try the same trick and see how the enemy goes down with one shot. That's what I mean by "five headshots will do". It can break the immersion but this is a game after all and the points for RPGs above make sense.

Well, it might help a little bit with immersion that people are genetically modified and has implants and so on, so they might be able to withstand a bit more than a normal person does today….