|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » Belgium says loot boxes are gambling

Default Belgium says loot boxes are gambling

November 25th, 2017, 16:18
I can't as I'm not planning to write doctoral dissertation on it. A few hints.

How were clerics, monks and other "people of faith" funded through history? By small community donations. Small those were, ignorable basically, but there was a mass of donations.

To make millions of and from these small donations, religions always fighted against each other trying to secure as many followers as possible. Hopefully you don't still believe it was faith that drove crusades, jihads and such whatnot - no, it was greed, but not just plunder, the second point was to secure even more followers.

Finally, how many religions support abortion choice? None. Why? Less children = less people to milk with microtransactions.

Btw… I've already stated before on the forum but you're new so before I'm accused for atheistic antireligion propaganda - I'm catholic. Which doesn't mean I mustn't speak what I think.
What I said up there does not mean I'm strongly against microtransactions. I'm not really, the society worked with microtransactions for centuries and it's not just religion, another example is lottery.
What I'm strongy against is the abuse of it and lootboxes are exactly that.

.

Meanwhile Australian (precisely Victoria) strategic analyst who works for Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation was clear - under Victorian law in his opinion loot boxes are a form of gambling:
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/11/vi…tute-gambling/

.

The snowball is growing even bigger:
http://www.pcgamer.com/french-senato…g-controversy/
A French senator has contacted France's online gambling regulator detailing his concerns about the microtranactions in Star Wars Battlefront II.

According to The Nerd Stash (via GameInformer), French senator Jérôme Durain contacted ARJEL (as well as other advocacy groups, including the organisation that represents France's games industry), proposing that loot boxes could be harmful to children.

While he stopped short of advocating new legislation—and seemingly took time to praise "the advancement of gaming as a culture"—he did specifically cite Battlefront II's recent controversy as a point of concern, stating the correlation between an in-game character's strength and spending real-life money needed further investigation.
Why are politicians so slow.
I mean, Star Trek Online boxes scandal is basically as old as Bible, how come it took some random EA game to finally make them react.
--
Toka Koka
Last edited by joxer; November 26th, 2017 at 00:07.
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#21

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,136
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)

Default 

November 25th, 2017, 23:58
More news. An update from UK.
https://www.pcgamesn.com/star-wars-b…ing-commission

In a news post on the official Gambling Commission site, executive director Tim Miller says that loot boxes cannot be regulated under current UK gambling laws. That’s because in order to classify something as gambling, the potential rewards must either be money or “money’s worth.” In other words, they must have value outside of the game itself.

This means that unless your sick Battlefront Star Card is able to be sold outside of the game - which it currently isn’t - you won’t be seeing the UK take action against loot boxes under existing gambling law.

That doesn’t mean the commission is shrugging off the complaints, however. “Many parents are not interested in whether an activity meets a legal definition of ‘gambling,’” says Miller. “Their main concern is whether there is a product out there that could present a risk to their children. We are concerned with the growth in examples where the line between video gaming and gambling is becoming increasingly blurred.”
Should I put this in BS of the week?
Nah. If the law is lacking due to technological progress, it needs to adapt. Hopefully it will because I've just heard that apparently PUBG lootboxes you can sell for real money. Lemme ask around a bit about this, I have a friend who plays (or played at least) that crap so I'll ask him tomorrow if it's true.

.

On another side, developer of some rather obscure game Clicker Heroes 2, dropped lootboxes although these were featured in the prequel and released this statement:
https://www.vg247.com/2017/11/21/cli…eir-addiction/
“I can only hope that these people could afford it, and that they were doing it to support us, and not to feed an addiction. But I strongly suspect that this is not the case,” the developer wrote.

The developer goes on to say that the game made a lot of money off these so called “whales”, but it’s impossible to know if those who paid this much money are simply of if they have a real gambling problem. “[Sic] we don’t want this kind of money if it came from anyone who regrets their decision, if it made their lives significantly worse as a result,” they added.

We really don’t like making money off players who are in denial of their addiction. And that’s what a large part of free-to-play gaming is all about. Everyone in the industry seems to rationalise it by shifting the blame, assuming way too much cognisance on the part of their victims.

“People can make their own decisions, right? But it just doesn’t sit well with me. Despite very few of our players having complained, it felt wrong when we started doing it and it still feels wrong now.”
While I won't be playing this game anyway, I can only respect a developer who wasn't scared to admit companies are abusing the addiction.

Meanwhile at EA nothing felt wrong ever since Dungeon Keeper mobile. Quite the contrary. Well, the audience decided to strike back and not just with user score metacritic downvoting of Star Wars Gamblefront 2, no.
There is an organized activity to boycott FIFA black friday sales because of, guess what, microtransactions in that game:
http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/3…crotransations

EDIT:
Couldn't believe but Gamespot, a site I don't care about for ages now, made a video about psychology behind lootboxes. Short, good and very informative:
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ex…block-33418521

That and their classic video about Destiny being slotmachine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g79dWuqXe5o
I guess there is still hope for that site.
--
Toka Koka
Last edited by joxer; November 26th, 2017 at 01:07.
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#22

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,136
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)

Default 

November 26th, 2017, 01:28
Joxer using Chien algorithm?
Drithius is offline

Drithius

Drithius's Avatar
Laughing Gnome

#23

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 4,293
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 26th, 2017, 02:31
Victoria in Australia is looking to put an "R" rating on games with loot boxes.

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/11/vi…tute-gambling/

For instance, the Classification Board could get involved. "If these companies want to include significant elements of gambling in their products then perhaps we should work with 'The Australian Classification Board' to ensure than any product that does that and monetises it gets an immediate R rating," Wolfe proposed.

"I could imagine that this would send ripples through the industry and it would support the objectives of the Gambling Legislation to ensure minors are not encouraged to participate in gambling."
I would be happy with that. I dont care if adults waste their money on loot boxes, but I hate it when kids are exposed to gambling this way.
Damian is offline

Damian

SasqWatch
Original Sin 2 Donor

#24

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 26th, 2017, 05:00
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Joxer using Chien algorithm?
No. I dropped just a few hints because the topic is too wide to write in details with examples on the forum. Note that I also skipped microtransactionsbased china trade/export that made them the second biggest if not the strongest economy in the world today.

We can always discuss it over a coffee. Or few, it'll take hours.
Here, of course. I'm not travelling.

Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Victoria in Australia is looking to put an "R" rating on games with loot boxes.
Thanks for the input.
I'm also asking everyone to keep this topic updated if you learn something new.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#25

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,136
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 00:04
Article today in academic newspaper here in Australia
https://theconversation.com/loot-box…gambling-88010
Hurls is offline

Hurls

Hurls's Avatar
Non-twitch gamer
RPGWatch Donor

#26

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 00:14
Well random treasure in games has always been gambling. I guess it only matters if you have to pay real $$$ for the pleasure.

Btw I'm not sure having a larger crowd for milking is the only reason religion find abortions offensive. Hum. You should look up that super big church in texas and what they did when the flooding occurred. It wasn't exactly what one would consider accepting refuge with open hands.
you is offline

you

Lazy_dog
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin 2 Donor

#27

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: usa - boston
Posts: 4,701
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 01:46
Originally Posted by you View Post
Well random treasure in games has always been gambling. I guess it only matters if you have to pay real $$$ for the pleasure.

Btw I'm not sure having a larger crowd for milking is the only reason religion find abortions offensive. Hum. You should look up that super big church in texas and what they did when the flooding occurred. It wasn't exactly what one would consider accepting refuge with open hands.
The hypocrisy abounds with the media coverage of that event. They made a mountain out of a molehill and people went crazy. Its all good and fine to marginalize, mock, and scorn Christianity any other time, but when the chips are down people still expect them to put out of the 'kindness of their hearts' and all that. Disgusting media coverage over a silly non-event. Why didn't they cover the 1000's of places that DID everything perfect in the name of their religion?
Oh right.. kindness doesn't sell. Only assholes do.
--
How about all games have a single huge lootbox you pay for up front that contains all the options, items, skins, unlocks etc? I'd pay for that!!
Wisdom is offline

Wisdom

Wisdom's Avatar
Torch & Pitchfork Vendor
Original Sin 2 Donor

#28

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,129
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 02:19
Actually the article(s) i read did compare that super rich church to poorer church that did open their doors. It was more of a commentary on a specific type of church that made 10s of millions off of the congregation and then …. While the mattress store down the block welcomed refugees with free 'beds' and a warm meal. Then there was the immigrant who died delivering free pizza and trump snubbing Mexico free aid….

Originally Posted by Wisdom View Post
The hypocrisy abounds with the media coverage of that event. They made a mountain out of a molehill and people went crazy. Its all good and fine to marginalize, mock, and scorn Christianity any other time, but when the chips are down people still expect them to put out of the 'kindness of their hearts' and all that. Disgusting media coverage over a silly non-event. Why didn't they cover the 1000's of places that DID everything perfect in the name of their religion?
Oh right.. kindness doesn't sell. Only assholes do.
you is offline

you

Lazy_dog
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin 2 Donor

#29

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: usa - boston
Posts: 4,701
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 02:32
There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#30

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 24,921
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 03:27
I dont think this is the place to discuss religion.
Damian is offline

Damian

SasqWatch
Original Sin 2 Donor

#31

Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,206
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 03:54
OK, so basically the problem is that you CAN pay for loot boxes. Turn off that ability and loot boxes are fine. (Legally speaking. Whether that's a smart game design or one you would be willing to pay for is another topic.) That means the British law is on the right track - it just needs to go in both directions.

So let's take a classic Pac Man arcade machine. Put in your quarter and you get three lives. All is well in the world. Then they put in a new feature - add an extra quarter and you get an extra life. STILL fine legally because you know just what you'll get.

Now say putting in a quarter gives one of three prizes: an extra life, Pac Armor that will make you immune to ghosts for 5 seconds the next time a ghost touches you, or a speed boost. Is it immediately bad because now you don't know what you get?

Or maybe there's more to it? Does the repeatability matter? If the bonus never repeats so putting in 3 quarters will always give you one of each and putting in a 4th quarter will just fall through to the coin return, would that mean it's OK? Or do you have to have a situation where giving a coin may give you nothing useful - like getting the Pac Armor when you already have it results in no bonus at all?

Saying "l00t box bad!" may feel good but it isn't very useful. Can we draw a reasonable line through the big, grey area and call one side OK and the other criminal?

P.S. There were a couple of great vids from Gamespot on free to play psychology a few years back. Ah, here it is:
loading…

loading…
--
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views….
-- Doctor Who in "Face of Evil"
Zloth is offline

Zloth

Zloth's Avatar
I smell a… wumpus!?

#32

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,479
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 09:15
The 'industry' is fighting back against regulation fears due to the loot box crisis.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/press…ing_crisis.php

We don't want no overtime pay! Said no-one ever. This seriously says alot about their priorities.
Silver is offline

Silver

Silver's Avatar
Spaceman
RPGWatch Team

#33

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 5,012
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 15:08
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
There are only two things I can't stand in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch
You do know the Dutch live in the Netherlands and not in Belgium, right?
Other than that, I agree with you.
--
Exitus acta probat.
wiretripped is offline

wiretripped

wiretripped's Avatar
Machiavellian
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#34

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Leuven, BE
Posts: 1,919
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 16:32
Originally Posted by wiretripped View Post
You do know the Dutch live in the Netherlands and not in Belgium, right? Other than that, I agree with you.
Yes, I'm aware. There are enough Dutch speaking people in Belgium though to make that joke work.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#35

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 24,921
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 16:47
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Yes, I'm aware. There are enough Dutch speaking people in Belgium though to make that joke work.
Speaking (a form of) Dutch doesn't make us Dutch (culturally), just like Americans aren't English. But sorry, I know it was said in jest and yet being compared to the Dutch just rubs me the wrong way.
--
Exitus acta probat.
wiretripped is offline

wiretripped

wiretripped's Avatar
Machiavellian
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#36

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Leuven, BE
Posts: 1,919
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)

Default 

November 28th, 2017, 17:27
Originally Posted by wiretripped View Post
Speaking (a form of) Dutch doesn't make us Dutch (culturally), just like Americans aren't English. But sorry, I know it was said in jest and yet being compared to the Dutch just rubs me the wrong way.
No problem.

Btw: In case anyone didn't get the joke, it's a quote from the comedy 'Austin Powers: Goldmember.'
Last edited by JDR13; November 28th, 2017 at 17:37.
JDR13 is offline

JDR13

JDR13's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#37

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Florida, US
Posts: 24,921
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)

Default 

November 29th, 2017, 11:25
Apparently EA's stock price has fallen and its a 3 month low. I guess its good to time to buy their stock now and sell it in 3 months time when it picks up again! You can use the profit to buy more loot boxes!
lostforever is offline

lostforever

lostforever's Avatar
SasqWatch

#38

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 3,600
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)

Default 

November 29th, 2017, 19:37
Did Belgium also declare that buying stocks was a form of gambling ?

Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
Apparently EA's stock price has fallen and its a 3 month low. I guess its good to time to buy their stock now and sell it in 3 months time when it picks up again! You can use the profit to buy more loot boxes!
you is offline

you

Lazy_dog
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin 2 Donor

#39

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: usa - boston
Posts: 4,701
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)

Default 

December 6th, 2017, 02:06
loading…


Originally Posted by wiretripped View Post
Speaking (a form of) Dutch doesn't make us Dutch (culturally), just like Americans aren't English.
English maybe, but what about Russian? <grinning, ducking, running>
--
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views….
-- Doctor Who in "Face of Evil"
Zloth is offline

Zloth

Zloth's Avatar
I smell a… wumpus!?

#40

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,479
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » General Forums » Off-Topic » Belgium says loot boxes are gambling
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:13.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch