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So, if you want to salivate over Torchlight - could you at least step into a time machine and praise Diablo in 1997 instead. Back then, it was deserved.

So am I correct in thinking that you're saying the genre was invented, or evolved to become what your define it as, by Diablo. And your favourite game in the genre is still Diablo?

Fair enough. But I today prefer Torchlight to Diablo, so within the same genre, I'd put Torchlight higher today.
 
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So am I correct in thinking that you're saying the genre was invented, or evolved to become what your define it as, by Diablo. And your favourite game in the genre is still Diablo?

Fair enough. But I today prefer Torchlight to Diablo, so within the same genre, I'd put Torchlight higher today.

No, my favorite game in the genre is not Diablo. My favorite game in the genre is whatever represents the peak of the genre - and in that way Diablo 2 and Hellgate are tied.

I'm not sure why we had to go and define the genre - but if that's what it takes for you to acknowledge that you like one game more than I do - I guess that's good.

At least I established why I like what I like.

I wonder why you think Torchlight is better than Diablo?
 
No, my favorite game in the genre is not Diablo. My favorite game in the genre is whatever represents the peak of the genre - and in that way Diablo 2 and Hellgate are tied.

I'm not sure why we had to go and define the genre - but if that's what it takes for you to acknowledge that you like one game more than I do - I guess that's good.

At least I established why I like what I like.

I wonder why you think Torchlight is better than Diablo?

Sorry, thought I explained the request for genre definition in my previous post. It's no good me saying 'oranges are the best citrus fruit' and you saying 'no, rasberries are the best flavour juice drink' - we need a common point of reference.

In my opinion Torchlight looks a lot better graphically and artistically, animations are smooth and the environments are more fun and varied. The sounds of Torchlight are much higher quality, not only the music, but the sound effects. Torchlight has slightly better pacing that Diablo - they utilise calmer moments and breaks in dungeons for fishing etc. to deliberately heighten the impact of adventuring intensity and boss battles in a way that works better than Diablo. The character retirement feature is great, and item collection is even more addictive. Gameplay with different characters is at least as varied, and the skill trees produce more differences in game style and feel than Diablo. The game also has a better sense of humour than Diablo.
 
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In my opinion Torchlight looks a lot better graphically and artistically, animations are smooth and the environments are more fun and varied. The sounds of Torchlight are much higher quality, not only the music, but the sound effects. Torchlight has slightly better pacing that Diablo - they utilise calmer moments and breaks in dungeons for fishing etc. to deliberately heighten the impact of adventuring intensity and boss battles in a way that works better than Diablo. The character retirement feature is great, and item collection is even more addictive. Gameplay with different characters is at least as varied, and the skill trees produce more differences in game style and feel than Diablo. The game also has a better sense of humour than Diablo.

Sure, it's a modern game and thus it looks a lot better.

As for the pacing - you may be right. I can't enjoy pacing when I can't enjoy the basic game.

The primary thing that's lacking for me is the multiplayer aspect. I simply can't enjoy such a game alone - as the pointlessness of the genre becomes overly evident. These games literally need cooperative multiplayer to have a point - if you ask me.

As for the characters, I find the skill-trees painfully dull and unexciting. Only tried the melee and the ranged guy. Both had BORING skill-trees with only 1-2 interesting abilities. I also happen to prefer melee characters, but hate "big berserker" types, so that didn't help.

The loot may be better than Diablo (marginally) but it's incredibly inferior to Hellgate (the best loot game, imo).

Now, Diablo didn't have skill-trees - as they hadn't been invented by then. But at least the characters could use spells to diversify builds - and though I'd still prefer D2/Hellgate/Titan Quest skill trees - it's better than the unimaginative trees of Torchlight. But I honestly don't remember if all classes can use spells in Torchlight? That would be helpful.

Torchlight atmosphere is "bright and cheery" which is not my preference. It completely lacks the atmosphere that Diablo mastered. In fact, Diablo is probably the strongest game in terms of atmosphere, in my opinion.

Also, the story of Diablo was actually quite good - if you bothered to read the manual and follow the dialogue. There wasn't much of it, but I really liked what was there.

Torchlight obviously doesn't even try - much like Hellgate didn't even try. That's a fatal mistake - because a singleplayer only game in this genre NEEDS a story to carry the momentum. Then again, since people seem to play Torchlight as a "10 minute" break game - I guess they don't need anything interesting here. I don't understand the appeal of such games - so maybe that's a vital point.

Well, at least that's what I think.

Diablo obviously didn't go for humor - so it shouldn't be measured against Torchlight in that way. It's just a difference in style.

You liked fishing? Hmm, ok. There are people in WoW who enjoyed fishing - so I guess that's possible. Deliberately improve the pacing? Haha, nah. It's just a little timewaster feature to my mind. I doubt it's there to spice up boss battles.

I think the boss battles in Diablo were memorable - a lot more so than ANYTHING in Torchlight. Maybe I'm not giving it enough credit - but I think we must have a very different idea of memorable boss battles. Remember The Butcher? It's one of the most memorable bosses in gaming history.

The retirement feature I will grant you. It's a neat little thing that does have a small positive impact.

I suppose my ultimate confusion is why we're comparing Diablo to Torchlight - well apart from me asking you :)

It would make more sense to compare the best of the genre with Torchlight.

What do YOU think is the best game in the genre?
 
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The primary thing that's lacking for me is the multiplayer aspect. I simply can't enjoy such a game alone - as the pointlessness of the genre becomes overly evident. These games literally need cooperative multiplayer to have a point - if you ask me.
And that was why I was putting the emphasis on genre definition. In *my* idea of the genre Torchlight (1) falls into, multiplayer isn't a relevance. But that's a minor point.

Also, the story of Diablo was actually quite good - if you bothered to read the manual and follow the dialogue. There wasn't much of it, but I really liked what was there.
Story is another of the things Diablo has over Torchlight, no question there.

That's a fatal mistake - because a singleplayer only game in this genre NEEDS a story to carry the momentum.
Again, genre. I suspect you are taking a game out of the genre it falls in and applying another genre's criteria to it, which is obviously falls short on. For what I expect from a game like Torchlight, lack of a decent story isn't a big deal.

Then again, since people seem to play Torchlight as a "10 minute" break game - I guess they don't need anything interesting here. I don't understand the appeal of such games - so maybe that's a vital point.
I think so, IMHO.

You liked fishing?
Yes. I also found the pets cute.

I suppose my ultimate confusion is why we're comparing Diablo to Torchlight - well apart from me asking you :)
:p And I thought it was your best in genre. Many of the points still apply to a comparison with Diablo 2. Hellgate I found the character movement/control to be really unenjoyable and never spent much time with it.

What do YOU think is the best game in the genre?
Torchlight. Diablo 2 beats it in some respects, but overall I enjoy playing Torchlight now more than Diablo 2. I am really looking forward to Torchlight 2 as I think that'll address some of the weakpoints as well.
 
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And that was why I was putting the emphasis on genre definition. In *my* idea of the genre Torchlight (1) falls into, multiplayer isn't a relevance. But that's a minor point.

My "idea" isn't so much mine as it is the genre as it has evolved. You can't really deny that Diablo "re-invented" the genre and brought multiplayer to the table.

We can argue about how important multiplayer is - but I think it's unreasonable to claim it hasn't been part of the genre since Diablo got released. There are only a few exceptions, at least on PC.

Again, genre. I suspect you are taking a game out of the genre it falls in and applying another genre's criteria to it, which is obviously falls short on. For what I expect from a game like Torchlight, lack of a decent story isn't a big deal.

I'm looking at games that qualify for the genre, and I'm commenting on what they do well. Torchlight sucks in terms of story - and that's it.

Yes. I also found the pets cute.

Heh, I suppose you're right :)

:p And I thought it was your best in genre. Many of the points still apply to a comparison with Diablo 2. Hellgate I found the character movement/control to be really unenjoyable and never spent much time with it.

Wow, didn't expect that to be honest. How much have you played these games?

Hellgate has the best combat feel of them all, I think. It's the best core gameplay - and makes Diablo 1 and 2 seem like boring slugfests.

It takes a while for Hellgate to "get there" - but after you've played it for a number of hours, it really clicks.

But if you don't like it you don't like it.

Torchlight. Diablo 2 beats it in some respects, but overall I enjoy playing Torchlight now more than Diablo 2. I am really looking forward to Torchlight 2 as I think that'll address some of the weakpoints as well.

Well, we most certainly disagree about this quite severely. Then again, it seems you're talking about what you're enjoying NOW - as opposed to what was more enjoyable at the peak of its heyday. I'd probably enjoy Torchlight more than Diablo today - but when I think about how much I enjoyed Diablo upon release, Torchlight doesn't even begin to enter the same category of entertainment.

If Diablo was released today - and I hadn't played it - AND it had modern production values, and so on....

But I tend to look at these games in terms of their potential and what you can reasonably expect. I don't think it's a failing of mine, but I suppose if you look at games in a vacuum - and you don't care about what they've done with what's already out there - Torchlight might be a better game overall.

Torchlight 2 does look at lot better - and it has multiplayer - but it doesn't really look like it does anything new.

It's interesting that a fan of the genre can honestly consider Torchlight to be the best.

It really goes to show how differently one can react to the same type of game, and how we differently we value evolution of genres.
 
To me, it's like you guys are arguing over which turd stinks less. :)

I'll never understand fans of the hack&slash/Diablo clone genre.
 
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To me, it's like you guys are arguing over which turd stinks less. :)

I'll never understand fans of the hack&slash/Diablo clone genre.

Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click
A Purple!
Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click
 
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Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click
A Cutscene!
Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click

Fixed it for the shooter genre.

However, most action RPGs have evolved and now we just hold down the mouse button when fighting ;)

Not all games are for everyone - that's just how it is.

Doesn't mean we have to pretend to understand what they're about though, like I won't go commenting on platform or sports games. I'm sure they hold something that just doesn't enter into my mind when playing them.
 
To me, it's like you guys are arguing over which turd stinks less. :)

I'll never understand fans of the hack&slash/Diablo clone genre.

I have to say I agree - I've never understood the appeal of mindlessly (and endlessly) click-clicking everything in sight, unless there is something else that's interesting going on around it (such as the dynamic worlds in Depths of Peril and Din's Curse or the intriguing atmosphere and setting of Divine Divinity). To each his own of course, but I personally think that Diablo-clones are far more damaging to the RPG genre than a lot of other trends.
 
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The genre was never about mindlessly clicking, just like playing soccer isn't about mindlessly kicking.

If you want to dismiss the genre just because you don't understand it, that's your business - but you could consider another approach.

I recommend either dismissing it without pretending to understand - like JDR seems to be capable of - or you could try to understand the appeal.

I can clue you in a bit:

Basically, the genre is very much about developing your character - trying to make the best or most entertaining combination of powers and equipment. Some people genuinely find the optimisation process captivating - and I'm one of them.

The rhythm of the genre has always been to start with a low challenge and then building it up as you progress. Many people who think it's about "mindlessly" clicking - don't get to the challenging part. That's when the game gets interesting, and when your character is put to the test. If it's a good example of the genre, you will die over and over unless you've made a strong character. I'm not sure exactly why this rhythm has become the norm, but it's just an accepted part of it - by fans of the genre. Most games of this type start to challenge the player only at the end of the game on the "normal" difficulty level - and the "real" game tends to start with the next difficulty level.

It's NOT about "getting through the game" like a traditional CRPG. It's ALL about your character - and the content/story is generally just a backdrop for your character. If there's a "point" to the game - it's about beating the game on the HIGHEST difficulty level - and doing it with as much efficiency as possible. The ultimate "goal" for some fans is to build the character dealing the most damage, or taking the least damage, or simply overcoming the challenge in a unique or unfamiliar way. It's very much about experimenting with builds and toys.

The loot aspect isn't about picking up shiny objects - contrary to popular belief. It's another layer of character building and customization. You see, every specific build will play very differently with a different combination of loot. That's why there's so much emphasis on loot statistics - because it's a big part of the strategic layer.

Oh, and certainly to me - THE most important part of the genre is the ability to do the above in the company of good friends. The cooperative multiplayer staple - is definitely a huge part of the appeal. I don't think any example of the genre, today, could keep my attention without multiplayer as an option. I don't HAVE to play them with friends, but I HAVE to know the option is there - before I invest in optimising characters and understanding the underlying (often VERY complex) mechanics.

Those are probably the core elements of the genre - and you will most likely need to be a fan of them to enjoy most games of the genre.

There are exceptions, though.

The recent Dungeon Siege 3 is a good one. It's less about the above, and more about providing a traditional linear story - and the above elements are, in this case, the backdrop. It's kinda like they flipped the genre on its head. But even so, these underlying elements represent the driving force even in a game where they're not given much priority. It just goes to show how powerful they are as gameplay mechanics.

Naturally, they won't do shit for people who just don't enjoy that kind of thing.
 
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