The case of Amanda Todd

It used to be the rare kid that got driven to school. Now it's the norm. What's up with that?

That varies a little by geography, me thinks. But...often there's no way to be certain kids get on the bus, with single parent or two worker families being the norm. With little kids, you can't be sure they'll be responsible enough to be ready for the bus every day (not to mention the security concerns of a kid alone) and with older ones you can't be sure they'll actually go to school.

Add in that many schools now offer breakfast so you get a convenience factor tacked on if you get your kid there early enough.

dteowner said:

To be honest, that observation might be easier for non-parents to make since they can be detached about it. Iz a little tougher to stick with the "who cares what that punk thinks" mantra (or the "well, you pretty well sucked rocks on that test/competition/whatever, so what can you change to be better next time" honest appraisal) when it's your kid crying.

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And that's part of the problem. Its starts young. My wife has three other mothers she hangs out with. All our kids are withing two months of each other (all right around 1 year). My wife and two of them have the attitude when one of the kids falls or starts crying or whatever of not 'babying' them unless they are really hurt. My daughter bangs her head and arms into stuff all the time. At first she cried, but we didn't rush over and tell her it was ok, blah blah blah. We'd tell her "You're fine", smile, clap, etc. Now, she might cry for a second, but then she's over it, same with two of the other kids, but the third? She's one of those mom's that freaks out at the slightest bump, and her kid cries all the fucking time!

You have to teach your kids to be tough from the beginning.

@DTE

Hmm, that last one makes sense. When I grew up there was almost always a homemaker to see the kids off, but she didn't walk them. Hell, the kids would rather be on their own.

There would have been more time back then for chauffeure service. Something other than availability is behind this. Probably paranoia caused by drug abuse.

blatantninja said:

You have to teach your kids to be tough from the beginning.

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Physically, emotionally, and psychologically. It's really difficult to get a kid to develop self-confidence and self-esteem since that has to come from them. You can guide situations and guide the development somewhat, but ultimately that "self-" component has to be there. I think (wholly unsupported opinion to follow) that's part of the reason many parents have bought into the "nobody fails" psychobabble--it's so much easier, both for the parent and the child, to go with endless empty praise and there's impressive textbooks that say you can hand a kid a box of self-esteem so that must make it right. Yet another instance of parental laziness being not only excused but promoted.

I hate to sound like a right wing fascist (wait, do I?), but I think the problem began with the hippies in the 60's. All this I love you, everybody's great, lets all hold hands and get along crap came from that movement. As those people came into positions of authority in the 80's, this kind of mentality started really taking over. The only hope I hold out for humanity is that it seems to me that most reasonable parents of young children today want nothing to do with that bullshit.

Thrasher said:

@DTE

Hmm, that last one makes sense. When I grew up there was almost always a homemaker to see the kids off, but she didn't walk them. Hell, the kids would rather be on their own.

There would have been more time back then for chauffeure service. Something other than availability is behind this. Probably paranoia caused by drug abuse.

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As we've discussed before, I don't know whether it's false perception, wider reporting of tragedies creating better awareness of a problem that was always there, or the world genuinely getting nastier, but security definitely factors into things far more than it did back in my day. I'd never consider letting my girls do some of the stuff that I did without concern as a kid (and I had a stay-at-home mom keeping tabs on me, so it's not like I was running wild).

It's probably a combination of a little of all of the above. Each on their own is not enough, but in concert....

pibbur who said:

Not only does it sound cold, but as I see it it IS cold. Your post suggests limited emotional capicatiy and above all you seem to know very little about what drives people to comitting suicide.

All based on what you wrote in your post, I don't know anything about YOU, of course

pibbur who probably will regret posting this

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You are not wrong, I don't have much in the way of empathy for people I never meet and I just can't understand why someone would commit suicide for any reason, sure I know the reason some people have done it but the idea of actually doing it is just completely foreign to me, just as the idea of not caring about this suicide is completely foreign to some people, there are people out there that don't care about teenagers committing suicide, I am one of them and I make no excuses for it, I am not proud or ashamed off it its just how I feel on the subject.

My post was meant more as an opinion about suicide in general then about Amanda Todd as I felt that was what the original poster was trying to start a dissolution about.

My opinion about the circumstances of the suicide and what the consequences should be is that the school should put more work into preventing bullying and face book and the other sites she was bullied on should have better moderator support and people should use said moderators more(I am not on face book so I don't know what moderator support if any the got) I don't think there should be made any law limiting freedom of speech, while this may be the popular opinion in this case I respect there are people with defend opinions out there.

pibbur who said:

I don't know anything about YOU, of course

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I love my family, I like computer game, I think suicide is a way to escape your problems rather then face them, I don't think that you shouldn't be scared to voice your opinion just because it isn't the popular one, I think your viewpoint f this topic is completely valid but I don't agree with it, now you know a bit more about me

DArtagnan said:

Are you suggesting that everyone in the western world should feel wonderful and can't be vulnerable to bullying or a large variety of emotional problems?

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That comment probably came out wrong, it was me trying to use my limited understanding what would course a person to commit suicide, for me the only thing I could think off that would make me commit suicide is being stuck in some 3rd world torture prison, that was really all that part of the post was about, people in the western world is just a susceptible to bullying and depression as the rest of the world.

DArtagnan said:

As for sounding cold, I guess you do. That said, I suspect we're talking ignorance about the human condition above all. Very common - and often more pronounced online than when talking face to face.

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If I am missing some key inside into the human condition please inform me what that inside might be, yes I would care if it was someone close to me that died and I probably would give "yeah its sad" comment if a colleagues or random person asked me about Amanda Todd in real life just to avoid a dissection, if it was a person I felt comfortable with I would say the same thing "yeah its sad but I really don't care about person on the other side of the world committing suicide".

I see people post with references to "the human condition" sometimes, I tried looking into what it mean before but everything I found about it say something different then the site before it, the only solid thing I found is that it is a philosophical idea more then anything.

CrazyIrish said:

Were we discussing an adult, I might agree with you. But we aren't. We are talking about a child who was manipulated by an adult. That is a VERY different matter.

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I don't consider a 15 year a child, I could do a long post about why I think that is but it probably won't change your opinion, how about we just agree to disagree on this matter.

A 15 year old rarely has the emotional maturity (and confidence born from experience) to deal with all kinds of attacks. That's the point.

Firestorm said:

I don't consider a 15 year a child, I could do a long post about why I think that is but it probably won't change your opinion, how about we just agree to disagree on this matter.

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Its not an opinion matter. The brain isn't fully developed at 15, and thats a proven fact. Also keep in mind that she was fifteen at the end of the ordeal, not the beginning. If you never knew anyone who went through emotional trauma at a young age and saw how it affected them even into their adult years, I could see why you might be so flippant about it. I have, so I can't.

I thought that it was a Lovecraft thread. Nice title.

It is deceiving. The girl changed school thrice and girls from the first school came to the third to give her a beating and record it.

The internet guy provided opportunities for bullies waiting in the antichamber to operate. That is why it is deceiving. She could probably have put quite well with a guy posting pics of herself but getting beaten by bullies in the flesh is a different story. The report in the OP hides that, putting the stress of actions performed under the cover of anonymity. The internet guy has his share but the other bullies probably have a much bigger share.

Those bullies who are going to be strengthened thanks to the anonymous collective. They outed the internet guy just to put a mark of him so that the same bullies could bully him. Those bullies have no responsibility at all, it is all because of the internet guy.
Just wondering that if that guy commits suicide, because of bullying, would anynomous come out of the woods to tell who they are? Or should another collective take time to track them down?

The focus is removed from people who probably weighted much more in the final outcome, all the bullies who take the pics as the perfect excuse to bully her in her real life. They were fed by the internet guy who just got fed to them by the anonymous collective.

She'll never know but her act is already instrumentalized, misinterpretated and in the end useless. Worse, it only strengthens the people who are behind her death as it now shifts all the blame on a guy who has his share but not the whole of it.

blatantninja said:

You have to teach your kids to be tough from the beginning.

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No.

You have to teach your kid to be balanced, so to say.

If a kid *always* ignores wounds, then it might die one day of wound infections, and having unnoticed bone breaks.

The thing is, imho, to teach kids decide between *serious* things and *not so serious* things.

I might sound somewhat off, but I've always been the "elder brother" for my younger sister, who is 15 years younger than I am. I tried to teach her some things, too, when she was growing up.

The only thing is hat it is so long ago now that I don't have much memory of it anymore.

Thrasher said:

A 15 year old rarely has the emotional maturity (and confidence born from experience) to deal with all kinds of attacks. That's the point.

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I agree here. I was at that age when I got bullied myself.

Since 1 1/2 years I'm finally in a therapy to clean all of this mess. It became clear that mySiciophobia was very likely spawned from that bullying.

I needed 20 years until I was able to cope with it.

And i can tell you that I had Depressions when I was a kid at that age. You'd be shocked if you'd see what I wrote at that time - desperately trying to transform all of my pain into poems & lyrics.
Several classes higher I got 2 school literature prizes for what I had written.

CrazyIrish said:

Its not an opinion matter. The brain isn't fully developed at 15, and thats a proven fact. Also keep in mind that she was fifteen at the end of the ordeal, not the beginning. If you never knew anyone who went through emotional trauma at a young age and saw how it affected them even into their adult years, I could see why you might be so flippant about it. I have, so I can't.

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I was even bullied at elementary school. I was so much far ahead of my same-age range that they failed to understand me. And because they didn't understand me, they called me - that's how I call it today - an "little idiot". Someone who couldn't be taken seriously. Someone who was to be ignored.

Children can be cruel.

Firestorm said:

If I am missing some key inside into the human condition please inform me what that inside might be, yes I would care if it was someone close to me that died and I probably would give "yeah its sad" comment if a colleagues or random person asked me about Amanda Todd in real life just to avoid a dissection, if it was a person I felt comfortable with I would say the same thing "yeah its sad but I really don't care about person on the other side of the world committing suicide".

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Me, for example ? I do live "at the other side of the world".

And yes, my wished were real. To cut off all of this pain.

I went into an even deeper and more darker depression phase in the late 90s. I was lying in my bet, full of pain, EVERY DAY thing about NOTHING BUT : How can I kill myself most efficiently ? I wasa dreaming. I was making plans. I was thinking of jumping off something - and I knew which place to choose. I knew this place. But my fear was too big.

You perhaps wouldn't be reading these lines, even. I wouldn't be here. I would be gone by 1997 or so. There wouldn't be this discussion.

My wishes were real. All too real. You really have no idea what goes on in the mind of someone who just wants to cut off this pain. Not the slightest.

The only thing that *really* held me alive was my dedication for protection for my younger sister. That was thec only thing that kept me alive. Because I didn't want her to have a similar traumatic experience. I don't know what she would have thought when I was gone - but she was too young for that, I decided for myself.

Don't ever argue with someone who has had REAL depressions and wishes of suicide ! You just don't know what you're talking about until you've had these depressions yourself. You just don't know how it feels like you just cannot know how it feels if you have restless legs, for example.

Firestorm said:

I think suicide is a way to escape your problems rather then face them,

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Of course it is ! When no-one helps you, what other way do you have, then ? The way of even more pain ? the way of being degraded even more ? The way of being bullied even more ? The way of people smashing your face even more ? The way of other pupils saing funny remarks even more often ? The way of pupils making faces at you even more often ? The way of even more laughter about yourself ?= The way of even more friends withdrawing from you ? The way of even more loneliness ? The way of even more not allowed to speak/being silenced by pupils in public ?

blatantninja said:

I hate to sound like a right wing fascist (wait, do I?), but I think the problem began with the hippies in the 60's. All this I love you, everybody's great, lets all hold hands and get along crap came from that movement. As those people came into positions of authority in the 80's, this kind of mentality started really taking over. The only hope I hold out for humanity is that it seems to me that most reasonable parents of young children today want nothing to do with that bullshit.

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In part you are right, in part you are wrong.

In part you are right in that these education movements didn't give children clear messages and clear borders. I think that this is the biggest problem.

These "clear messages" and the "clear borders" might be positive ones or negative ones, at least they must be clear and not include any form of "double-binding".

In part you are wrong, because these education movements gave children the chance to explore more of their abilities and thus grow into more self-confidence.

I personally believe that balance is needed, that above everything else.

That comment probably came out wrong, it was me trying to use my limited understanding what would course a person to commit suicide, for me the only thing I could think off that would make me commit suicide is being stuck in some 3rd world torture prison, that was really all that part of the post was about, people in the western world is just a susceptible to bullying and depression as the rest of the world.

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Yes, but why do you think you and your personal position is relevant as an objective measuring stick for a good reason to commit suicide?

If I am missing some key inside into the human condition please inform me what that inside might be, yes I would care if it was someone close to me that died and I probably would give "yeah its sad" comment if a colleagues or random person asked me about Amanda Todd in real life just to avoid a dissection, if it was a person I felt comfortable with I would say the same thing "yeah its sad but I really don't care about person on the other side of the world committing suicide".

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You seem to be missing something vital about the human condition. As I inferred above, one of the most common displays of ignorance is believing your own subjective position and experience with life is somehow sufficient to guage what's reasonable for other people.

So, for your part - I think you need to experience more things in life and if you're "fortunate", you'll eventually realise that everyone in the world has a different experience with life and a different capacity to endure, based on a large variety of factors.

Essentially, if people do something you don't understand - you will come to appreciate that they might not be "wrong/weak" - but rather that you simply don't have enough information to understand their decision or action. As such, you should probably refrain from judging them.

I see people post with references to "the human condition" sometimes, I tried looking into what it mean before but everything I found about it say something different then the site before it, the only solid thing I found is that it is a philosophical idea more then anything.

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I'm sure.

To me, it's "what it means to be human" - and as such, can be a very extensive subject. I use it for brevity - and because it will cover what I'm talking about.

DArtagnan said:

As I inferred above, one of the most common displays of ignorance is believing your own subjective position and experience with life is somehow sufficient to guage what's reasonable for other people.

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Ummm, you mean exactly like you're doing now?

The guy's got a rather unpopular opinion. He even admits it as such. All you fuzzy anklebiters are going into attack mode because somehow you're just completely certain that your subjective opinion is more valid than his subjective opinion, and justifying the attacks on the false logic that your hivemind subjective opinion is somehow objectively valid. Must be some sort of enlightened logic at work.

dteowner said:

Ummm, you mean exactly like you're doing now?

The guy's got a rather unpopular opinion. He even admits it as such. All you fuzzy anklebiters are going into attack mode because somehow you're just completely certain that your subjective opinion is more valid than his subjective opinion, and justifying the attacks on the false logic that your hivemind subjective opinion is somehow objectively valid. Must be some sort of enlightened logic at work.

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No, not what I'm doing now. I've stated no objective opinion about her suicide. That's because I don't think that's possible.

He's judging someone based on what can only be incredibly limited information about the person in question.

My personal opinion is that you can't make such a determination with the level of information we have available.

As for the level of popularity his opinion holds - I find that completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

This:

I know there are probably some people that feel strongly about this and this isn't meant to troll anyone, I just can't feel bad for anyone living in today's western world with all the freedoms that entail and then commit suicide.

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Is what I'm questioning. What does he know about her freedoms and her situation in general?

I'd like to know why he thinks that a society he considers "free" translates to everyone living there having no reason to commit suicide. At least, why does he not feel bad for her, for that particular reason?

It smacks of complete ignorance in terms of the human condition.

Something I'll gladly claim not to suffer from on that level, which is why I feel very comfortable challenging such a point of view.

That's my subjective position - and it's right there for you to challenge, if you think you can back up why I'm wrong.

pibbur who said:

Not only does it sound cold, but as I see it it IS cold. Your post suggests limited emotional capicatiy and above all you seem to know very little about what drives people to comitting suicide.

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DArtagnan said:

As for sounding cold, I guess you do. That said, I suspect we're talking ignorance about the human condition above all. Very common - and often more pronounced online than when talking face to face.

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DArtagnan said:

You seem to be missing something vital about the human condition. As I inferred above, one of the most common displays of ignorance is believing your own subjective position and experience with life is somehow sufficient to guage what's reasonable for other people.

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DArtagnan said:

No, not what I'm doing now. I've stated no objective opinion about her suicide. That's because I don't think that's possible.

He's judging someone based on what can only be incredibly limited information about the person in question.

My personal opinion is that you can't make such a determination with the level of information we have available.

As for the level of popularity his opinion holds - I find that completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

This:



Is what I'm questioning. What does he know about her freedoms and her situation in general?

I'd like to know why he thinks that a society he considers "free" translates to everyone living there having no reason to commit suicide. At least, why does he not feel bad for her, for that particular reason?

It smacks of complete ignorance in terms of the human condition.

Something I'll gladly claim not to suffer from on that level, which is why I feel very comfortable challenging such a point of view.

That's my subjective position - and it's right there for you to challenge, if you think you can back up why I'm wrong.

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It's possible we're arguing different points here. To nutshell it, he put up "I don't have much sympathy for a suicide because that's just weakness", and the response was "*GASP* you're a monster and clearly ignorant because every life is a treasure". Both of the "because" are subjective opinions so neither really carries the day—the difference is the hivemind sees fit to be insulting about it because they've falsely promoted their subjective opinion to an objective fact.

If you're strictly hung up with his "western world" angle, that's a different horse altogether. Then you're basically tied up in whether relativism can be objective.

dteowner said:

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It's possible we're arguing different points here. To nutshell it, he put up "I don't have much sympathy for a suicide because that's just weakness", and the response was "*GASP* you're a monster and clearly ignorant because every life is a treasure". Both of the "because" are subjective opinions so neither really carries the day—the difference is the hivemind sees fit to be insulting about it because they've falsely promoted their subjective opinion to an objective fact.

If you're strictly hung up with his "western world" angle, that's a different horse altogether. Then you're basically tied up in whether relativism can be objective.

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Your intepretation of the reaction is on you, and it has nothing to do with how I reacted.

In my opinion, you're not a monster because you can't empathise with strangers or understand how other people can be very, very different from yourself.

In case of the latter, you're simply being ignorant of the human condition, which is an excessively widespread feature.

As such, it's a very common position and one which I have no issue speaking out against - as I think it contributes greatly to the misery of the world.

Your overly simplistic interpretation, likely partially based on a pre-imagned scenario, is not really a great concern for me.

But I hope I've made it clear that I didn't react as you suggest.

DArtagnan said:

Your intepretation of the reaction is on you, and it has nothing to do with how I reacted.

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That's why I included the quotes. Would you like to do some revisionist history? Or did you not mean "ignorance" when you typed "ignorance"?

DArtagnan said:

In my opinion, you're not a monster because you can't empathize with strangers or understand how other people can be very, very different from yourself.

In case of the latter, you're simply being ignorant of the human condition, which is an excessively widespread feature.

As such, it's a very common position and one which I have no issue speaking out against - as I think it contributes greatly to the misery of the world.

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This only holds water if your holy grail, "the human condition" (which, it bears mentioning, is by your own admission rather broad and grey around the edges) is somehow objectively "good". Since you introduced the angle and seem to be hanging your entire response on it, perhaps you're on the hook to demonstrate that it (whatever the hell it actually is) is objectively worth pursuing.