ELEX 2 - Is Coming @ C4G

JFarrell71 said:

Maybe that's hard to understand because it's not true…. it doesn't mean that there's a non-trivial variance from scores as widely dispersed as 4 and 9 at all. In fact, 4's and 9's are probably outliers in this data set.

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Xenocide didn't claim that there was a huge number of people, who gave it a nine. The statement was that those people, who gave it a 9 will still give it a 9 regardless of the average value.

The same holds for me: For me it is even a 10 and I love it and will love it. And I don't say: It is an average game but I will like it because it is from PB (something like that was assumed earlier by Nereida). Why should I believe that it is an average game only because it has an average metascore? There is no logic in that. I also love Lords of Xulima or Spellforce 1 and these games may also have an average metascore, but that is irrelevant for the people who love these games.

And therefore I look forward to Elex 2 and expect it to be a 10 for me.

When I think about why I'm drawn to certain cRPGs such as the Ultima series and Gothic/Risen/Elex series there is so much more going on in my mind that could ever be reflected in just a scoring system. It's sort of like in the movie Titanic where in the beginning the analyst gives this sort of forensic rundown of the Titanic to the old woman who quickly points out the soullessness of such analysis and as such marks the beginning point of her story.

For me, this goes back to the late 70s & 80s with the Atari 2600, Intellivision, Colecovision, TRS-80, and an IBM PC. Each of those systems brought incremental improvements in graphics and game complexity.

After discovering and playing Ultima 2, I was forever drawn to cRPGs. Along the way were a number of other series like Bard's Tale and Wizardry and some other "one hit wonders" that came and went.

All of those games suffered from poor graphics relative to other genres offering more "actiony" gameplay. At the time though, games were so far and few between, not to mention quite expensive, that I think most gamers, including myself, oriented themselves on whatever was great about it while filling in with our imagination whatever was weak. Meaty game manuals were a part of fleshing out a game above and beyond the technology's capability to technically facilitate ideas by filling our imaginations with those ideas.

Fast forward to today with games that can simulate individual hairs on your character's beard, it is quite a different time... technically. However, "actiony" games are still "actiony" and don't grip me for long because the eye candy, at least for me, wears off fast.

I'm still drawn to game worlds filled with complex gameplay, systems, simulation, exploration, and story. However, even now, although cRPG visuals are vastly superior to their ancestors of the 70s/80s/90s, they still tend to take a back seat to their action game counterparts.

I think this sort of experience over the decades, the idea that expecting the best graphics, animation, and overall visual presentation isn't as important as the actual gameplay that has that sometimes undefinable "fun factor." So with a game like Elex and the justified comments that it is a "janky" game isn't something I'd argue, but I find that PB makes their gameplay very interesting in a number of ways... and the gameplay is what keeps me hooked long after the eye candy wears off... which is usually, quite literally, after just a few minutes, at least for me.

So, again. You can like what you want. I know I like games the majority of people don't. However, questioning the validity of averages, statistics, or bring in random arguments like "RPGs don't appeal the button-masher masses" while Baldur's Gate or Zelda sit at the top of the list with 98/100 scores you just dissolve your own credibility. Your real argument is probably something like "I like it because I have fun with it, so what?".

It's not like it's wrong to like a "eurojank" game as Couchpotato put it. Earlier in this thread, I just wanted to understand what is it to like in games with a feeling of being dated, bad animations, poor voice acting, wonky combat balance, and a general feeling of unpolish that is what gives them their deserved 6-7 scores. And I got my answers, which I'm happy with.

Now you can keep going down this rabbit hole of the validity of game scores, and how much or how little they mean to you just because you have a compulsory need to feel validated, but you don't need anyone's permission or validation to like a game. If you did, you have mine.

Nereida said:

So, again.
[...]
Earlier in this thread, I just wanted to understand what is it to like in games with a feeling of being dated, bad animations, poor voice acting, wonky combat balance, and a general feeling of unpolish that is what gives them their deserved 6-7 scores. And I got my answers, which I'm happy with.

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Sorry, but you do it again. You ask, why we like a game with the bad properties you describe, as if these were objective facts and you want to understand, why we like it in spite of these.
But, at least for me, this game doesn't feel dated, I see no bad animations, no poor voice acting or a wonky combat balance. In particular the combat balance is as it is with a purpose. And it doesn't feel unpolished for me.
And I also don't feel that it "deserves" the 6-7 scores. The scores are a result of the average of how people experienced it, there is no objective proof that the game "is" a 6-7.
So your question, why people like the game in spite of being mediocre is the wrong question. And that is the reason why people liking it don't need a validation for their opinion and didn't ask for it.

@Nereida; I don't know if you mean to or not, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but your posts come off a bit asshole-ish.

Nereida said:

Now you can keep going down this rabbit hole of the validity of game scores, and how much or how little they mean to you just because you have a compulsory need to feel validated, but you don't need anyone's permission or validation to like a game. If you did, you have mine.

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You talking about someone being compulsory at this point is pretty funny.

His post wasn't even directed at you. He was just talking about what he likes, but you apparently felt the need to push back…yet again.

Yea, to me, it sounds more like Nereida is upset more that game developers like Bioware and Betheseda get their games trash talked sometimes here, maybe the real issue?

Anyway, don't take things personally if people trash talk your favorite developer. I think Bioware deserves it, and to a lesser extent, so does Bethesda based on their recent game. My 2 cents.

I'm not responding to anyone in particular, it just seems like I started the scores debate, and so I felt it was my responsibility, in a way, to clarify that you are allowed to like any game you like without anyone's permission, or deceiving yourself or trying to downplay what an average scores means. It's a wonderful thing to have a different opinion. Stop trying to excuse yours. Your opinion is valid just because it's yours. That's all I mean.

And I don't care about Bethesda or BioWare. I have a general distaste for hypocrits, and it is why I call them out, but in general I'm just trying to be sensible and logical with what I'm saying.

I doubt anyone here feels like they need to excuse their opinion, but don't let that stop you from projecting.

JDR13 said:

I doubt anyone here feels like they need to excuse their opinion, but don't let that stop you from projecting.

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JDR13 said:

I doubt anyone here feels like they need to excuse their opinion, but don't let that stop you from projecting.

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And 5 pages of excuses and downplaying the reason for Elex scores are mediocre obviously prove you right.

I do notice you use this "projecting" word often when you reach a dead-end in an argument with anyone, so I can tell someone used it on you and you were impressed, so you now use it on others as if it was a "win argument" ace. Hey, as long as it feels good for you, you don't need my permission to feel good about it either.

Nereida said:

And 5 pages of excuses and downplaying the reason for Elex scores are mediocre obviously prove you right.

I do notice you use this "projecting" word often when you reach a dead-end in an argument with anyone, so I can tell someone used it on you and you were impressed, so you now use it on others as if it was a "win argument" ace. Hey, as long as it feels good for you, you don't need my permission to feel good about it either.

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Ok, so you are a troll, who is proud to have provoked five pages of discussion by talking down a game you played for one hour.

I apologize to the other readers of this forum for feeding the troll, I honestly thought she was interested in our opinions.

Nereida said:

And 5 pages of excuses and downplaying the reason for Elex scores are mediocre obviously prove you right.

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I don't mind a debate, but I'm not real keen on dishonest people.

You pretended to want to understand why people who like PB's games like them, but when examples were given, you chose to ignore them and instead just keep repeating the same things over and over again.

It's not about trying to understand something as much as the fact that some people like these games more than certain others, and that bothers you. That's pretty obvious. I think Arkadia7 probably hit close to the truth with his comment, but I wouldn't expect you to be honest about that either.

Nereida said:

I do notice you use this "projecting" word often when you reach a dead-end in an argument with anyone, so I can tell someone used it on you and you were impressed, so you now use it on others as if it was a "win argument" ace. Hey, as long as it feels good for you, you don't need my permission to feel good about it either.

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Actually, I just use it when I feel it's appropriate. You're not nearly as clever as you're trying to be here.

ELEX scored very high here - so some PB-fans from the Watch are just giving a few arguments why they like the game and design principles. Nothing more - nothing less.

ELEX:
Exploration, choices with consequences, factions, a dry sense of humor, collecting everything, lots of quests, challenging fights, multiple quest solutions - a typical Piranha Bytes RPG!

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xenocide said:

I guess my own thoughts and feeling about how much I enjoy PB games is incorrect, thanks for informing me. I will no longer anticipate the next game coming after one of my favorite games of the last few years. Oh, scratch that, I already forgot I didn't really like the game I just felt sorry for a small developer

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What the hell are you talking about?

Nereida said:

Earlier in this thread, I just wanted to understand what is it to like in games with a
feeling of being dated,
bad animations,
poor voice acting,
wonky combat balance, and
a general feeling of unpolish

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Others already have pointed that out, but I want to make it state it more clearly.
All of these 5 features are difficult to measure and objectify. They're heavily subjective.
One gamer likes it, the other gamer doesn't.
And that's one answer to your question why other gamers like these games.

But still if they agree with you on these 5 features, they might have a lower weighting and are outshined by features other features where the game is good at (exploration, music,…) and that they weight higher.
That's the other answer.

I don't think it's that hard to understand.

There's a whole lot of defensiveness in this thread. Whatever you think about PB games, good or bad, if the point was to prove that PB fans are defensive when someone doesn't like them as much as you do, mission accomplished.

JFarrell71 said:

There's a whole lot of defensiveness in this thread. Whatever you think about PB games, good or bad, if the point was to prove that PB fans are defensive when someone doesn't like them as much as you do, mission accomplished.

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Sorry, but that's just dumb. People giving reasons why the games appeal to them isn't being defensive.

I agree there's some defensiveness in this thread though, but it seems to relate to other developers.

JDR13 said:

Sorry, but that's just dumb. People giving reasons why the games appeal to them isn't being defensive.

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Sorry, that's just dishonest. That's not all that's going on in this thread, and you're smart enough to know that. You're also disingenous enough to pretend not to know it.

There's the arguments in bad faith:

"But, at least for me, this game doesn't feel dated, I see no bad animations, no poor voice acting or a wonky combat balance."

That's like a sports fan, angry at the officiating in a game, claiming that their team never commits a legitimate foul. It's okay to love something dearly and still see and acknowledge when it just may not be flawless. When you don't, your arguments are dishonest gaslighting.

And then we have this:

"I guess my own thoughts and feeling about how much I enjoy PB games is incorrect, thanks for informing me. I will no longer anticipate the next game coming after one of my favorite games of the last few years. Oh, scratch that, I already forgot I didn't really like the game I just felt sorry for a small developer."

That's in the dictionary under "defensive".

There's plenty more. But you can read.

A brief interlude from the grenade lobbing.

I waited to play Elex for a long time. Until around 3 days ago, in fact. I've played three of PB's games in the past and thought they excelled in some areas (exploration, faction based choice and consequence) and fell short in others. Not to stir the pot, but my own score for those games would probably be around a 6 or 7

Elex is my favorite of PB's games thus far. The world/level design is great. The combat is alright, and the jetpack adds a cool dimension ot that and to the traversal. The voice acting is better than I expected, and so is much of the writing. The quests are well designed, and many of them are laudably nuanced and variable. I've been playing it pretty compulsively, and even as I write this I'm anxious to jump back in. I'm a fan.

But… and here's what seems to elude some people… I can still see things that are less than great. When you fight enemies near changes in elevation, they like to teleport around. Response to hitting keys is sluggish. Dialogue needed another proofreading/translation pass (sometimes saved by the voice actors, sometimes not). Some roles are performed poorly (a minority, but some).

Players are given zero information about which areas and quests might be dangerous and which are not, leading a player to have to dip their toe in the cold water and see if a shark bites it off. Fast travel and reloading ameliorates that issue, but it still would have been nice (and easy) to do better with that. You don't have to do it with UI or anything; just have Drog say "things are easy enough to the south, but be wary of venturing over the river to the east, or heading north… that's Alb territory." That sort of thing.

I'd probably give it an 8 so far. I'm level 7, btw. It's good enough that I'll keep an eye on Elex 2 down the road.