About this Dark! Gritty! and Mature! thing...

I call the "older generation" the Escapists. Because they want a settiung that is completely different from reality ! Because of what Escapism actually is.

The "younger generation" doesn't want that. They want games (and P&P) to actually reflect reality.

In the end, we have kind of a "clash of generations".

While I see your point, I think that's quite a simplification.

Personally, being very much of the "older generation" - my tastes have never really changed.

It very much depends on the genre and the setting, and I want very different things for sci-fi than I do for fantasy. But there are things that I find more comfortable, and then there are things that I think SHOULD be.

Ultimately, I want something that fits the game - but I DO shy away from overly lighthearted settings, unless we're talking Zelda or something.

Drakensang was too bright and cheery for me, but then - I think Fallout is horribly depressing. But those settings seemed to fit the mood, so I can't really complain.

The best executed settings I take from books, because those exist in my mind. I think Tolkien did a masterful job detailing his world - and I think Lord of the Rings Online remains pretty faithful to that - and that's why I LOVE the world in that game.

I also think Age of Conan did a masterful job with its environments, and even World of Warcraft had some absolutely amazing atmospheres.

There's really no one kind of setting I prefer, but there are two settings I LONG to see, when done right:

Cyberpunk - ala Shadowrun
Sci-fi - ala Aliens

I really, REALLY would love CRPGs set in those worlds - with immersion being a key focus area for the developers.

---

But anyway, I'm not really into any extreme - neither bright/cheery or dark/gritty.

In my personal opinion, dark/gritty has much more to do with characters and story, than the visual aesthetics of the world they're set in.

In fact, I think you can have a much darker and more impactful experience - if you place truly dark characters in a beautiful world. The contrast can work towards that - but the Hollywood clichés developers are working with will never achieve that.

As far as I know, the american audience consider something so profoundly cartoonish and caricatured as Dark Knight dark and gritty - as if it had anything to do with the horrors of the real world.

If you want to make any kind of serious statement about the world and morality, you go make a movie like Apocalypse Now - not a Batman movie.
 
Personally, being very much of the "older generation" - my tastes have never really changed.

I thought that this might be coming.

I'm therefore defending myself by saying that I used these terms for the "explanation course" on the currently ongoing discussion of the TDE setting.

And since I do visit these discusssions (in contrary to you), I can clearly say that in THIS case it IS a "clash of generations" !
 
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I thought that this might be coming.

I'm therefore defending myself by saying that I used these terms for the "explanation course" on the currently ongoing discussion of the TDE setting.

And since I do visit these discusssions (in contrary to you), I can clearly say that in THIS case it IS a "clash of generations" !

You don't have to defend yourself as I wasn't attacking you.

I'm still a bit confused but I guess what you're saying is that your point was strictly confined to the generations of this thread?

But I'm a part of that thread now! ;)
 
You don't have to defend yourself as I wasn't attacking you.

Then you have some kind of communications problem, because your reply produced in me the feeling of being attacked.

And no, I won't accept your possible remark that the "problem" might lie within me.

It's simply some kind/sort of communications, of how to formulate sentences, how to use certain words which contain - means: can ignite - certain feelings/emotions in readers.

Remember my analysis of that remark about Drakensang being not fully voiced ?
I am able to sense quite some intentions and emotions within formulations of sentences. Sometimes, they are only a few words, but they are able to change the whole "emotional picture" of a sentence.

Someone who is for example not able to sense sentrences "emotionally", might not be able to sense that certain words and formulations might cause a stir in readers, and then wonder why the readers reply and feel in certain ways.

I have the feeling as if this could be your problem as well.
 
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Then you have some kind of communications problem, because your reply produced in me the feeling of being attacked.

Ehm, ok. You felt attacked.

Could you perhaps point out how I was attacking you?

I know there was a thread recently concerning my person - but let's not go crazy and claim I attack everyone at every turn. That wouldn't be fair, really.

And no, I won't accept your possible remark that the "problem" might lie within me.

Well, I'm afraid it does - in this case.

It's simply some kind/sort of communications, of how to formulate sentences, how to use certain words which contain - means: can ignite - certain feelings/emotions in readers.

I can hardly rule this out - but I'd really love to know what words you're referring to, because I'm finding it REALLY hard to see how I attacked you.

Remember my analysis of that remark about Drakensang being not fully voiced ?I am able to sense quite some intentions and emotions within formulations of sentences. Sometimes, they are only a few words, but they are able to change the whole "emotional picture" of a sentence.

No, I don't remember.

I honestly have NO IDEA what kind of emotions and intentions you sense. I really didn't intend to attack you - honest.

Someone who is for example not able to sense sentrences "emotionally", might not be able to sense that certain words and formulations might cause a stir in readers, and then wonder why the readers reply and feel in certain ways.

I count empathy as one of my greatest strengths - actually. But I can hardly be responsible for your misinterpretation of words that don't carry the slightest aggressive intention.

I have the feeling as if this could be your problem as well.

I kinda get that impression, but I still have no idea why you feel attacked in this thread - not by me, anyway.
 
Let's keep it cool ... and DArtagnan, since this has come up multiple times with regards to you, you might really look at it as a serious thing. Perhaps the way you take every sentence someone with an opposing view posts and dissects them makes folks feel attacked ...
 
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Let's keep it cool ... and DArtagnan, since this has come up multiple times with regards to you, you might really look at it as a serious thing. Perhaps the way you take every sentence someone with an opposing view posts and dissects them makes folks feel attacked ...

Could we be fair, for just a second?

I did NOTHING to attack him. You can't point it out, because it's not there.

So, I should just accept that he claims I attacked him and that I don't know how to form sentences without agressive intentions.

Please explain to me, how that's in any way a reasonable request.
 
Please explain to me, how that's in any way a reasonable request.

I would just, as the intelligent person you are, take the comments of another intelligent RPG lover at face value - he felt attacked, and there have been more than a couple of other similar comments in the past.

That is all I'm saying.
 
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I did NOTHING to attack him. You can't point it out, because it's not there.

That is your completely SUBJECTIVE point of view.

You don't seem to have the ability to distinguish between your objective and your subjective Reality.

Besides, I do have heard of forums, where dissecting of posts is simply not allowed. Think about this, and why they might have decided so.
 
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You're not making any sense whatsoever - and if there's any personal attack going on it would have to be on you.

If you really think it's fair to go this way, based on personal bias, I leave that to you.

That is your completely SUBJECTIVE point of view.

You don't seem to have the ability to distinguish between your objective and your subjective Reality.

What is MY objective reality supposed to be?

Why don't you point out the part of my "attack" on you, that YOU - subjectively - consider an attack.

You can't do that, can you?

What does that say about how you're behaving in this thread, I wonder.
 
I would just, as the intelligent person you are, take the comments of another intelligent RPG lover at face value - he felt attacked, and there have been more than a couple of other similar comments in the past.

That is all I'm saying.

Would you consider it unreasonable for Alrik to consider he might be wrong, and if he can't point out how I was attacking him - and since I've said plainly from the beginning that it certainly wasn't my intention - to accept that I wasn't.

He's insisting that I attacked him, and saying that I can't distinguish between subjective and objective reality.

Wouldn't it be reasonable and civil of him, to either point out - just one sentence in my post about generations - that was an attack on him, OR accept that he got me all wrong.

I think so.
 
... can we all remember the word 'Mature' in the title and move on and try to check our attack / defense sensitivity ... (wishes he had 'lock' power in this forum... )
 
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How the hell did we end up here?

Alrik, I have to say I see nothing wrong with D'Artagnan's post, so perhaps this really is a misunderstanding. I appreciate D'Artagnan has been in some battles lately and I don't doubt you feel uncomfortable but I don't see anything malicious in these posts. I doubt he knew you were being very specific about an ongoing debate within the TDE community - I certainly took it more generally at first.

Can we go back to the discussion? I for one found the conversation interesting.
 
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I'm surprised there seems to be a backlash against "dark and gritty"- I have to say it's easily my preference, although variety is the spice of life, so diversity is always a good thing.

Is everything really "dark and gritty" these days? Mass Effect wasn't really that dark, Jade Empire wasn't, Fable wasn't and I assume the same for Fable II. Obsidian probably tends a bit more that way because they like to avoid (or at least mix up) the typical story archetypes. MotB was dark but I don't know about gritty...SoZ is neither.

The Witcher and Fallout 3 for sure...but both with good reason, surely.

Anyway, for me (and this is just my personal taste), I really prefer good "dark" art. I'm really interested in Disciples III almost just for the art.
 
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A little bit of sensationalism, a little comedy, art style, some form of subculture, an element of 'cool'. Dark & gritty has always ment that you need to be about thirteen to enjoy this, but then, I also have a opinion of what 'mature' means that doesn't really match the 'norm' (read dull, antiquated, closed minded etc etc).

I would put MotB as a D&G game, I mean, the Wall of Souls is pretty bleak stuff. It does remind me of Fritz Leiber especially with its theatre reference, and it is much more sword & sorcery like than anything I can think of that's come out recently. It's not an overt gory game (from my good play through anyway).
 
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I'm surprised there seems to be a backlash against "dark and gritty"- I have to say it's easily my preference, although variety is the spice of life, so diversity is always a good thing.

It is actually more about how every new console game seems to tout being a 'dark, gritty tale with conflicted characters in a realistic open world setting where you choose what happens!' Most of these are action games, meaning all of that stuff is fluff, but still ...
 
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i like to see a rpg games with depressing love story as in Dead Space; plus with more detail and such like the one planescape: torment.
 
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Quotation from what I wrote in a thread about the interest in Star Wars characters:

What I also see is the turn towards "dark" characters. There is not a single Jedi among the results - apart from Bastila Shan, maybe.
Almost all characters most voted for are either Sith or somehow Sith/Empire-related. There is no love for light side characters.

I can only speculate why this is so. I strongly assume that this is heavily caused by an old mantra/rule that is performed in almost EVER video game:

The evil boss is the most interesting character of the whole game, and he or she has the most interesting technical "toys".
This is a rule which you can find in almost EVER video game and in a lot of movies like the James Bond films.

This leads me to the question why designers put so much effort into designing light-side characters NOT to be either fascinating nor interesting ?
 
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I think the explanation is simpler than that.

Kids (I assume that most of those who vote on such a thing are in their early teens, at least as long as the vote didnt take place on this site:D) simply cherish the opportunity to act as jerks without consequences. RPGs and games in general usually deliver just that as the evil path. End of story.
 
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