Why: Planescape Torment, Balders Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights

While I can't bare riddles, I do like some element of puzzling-kind-of-thing in my RPGs. What counts as a thought process can vary wildly though. I'm not sure if this is necessarily a new thing either, Diablo was never renown for its thought processes and there is something to be said for games that have a more therapeutic numbing effect on the mind. But I do believe a good RPG should engage the mind on a variety of levels, from character use to actual puzzles.

Riddles though... riddles are kind-of supposed to be unsolvable, the riddle of life, the riddle of the oxymoron truth etc.

I'm still not getting this 'declining sales' aspect though. As far as I can tell, a well made cRPG in it's most traditional form is still good for 2 million sales, either in 2000 or 2014 - Balders Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights, The Witcher, Dragon Age, they all seem to hit the same kind of sales, suggesting there is a stable bedrock of support for such games.

The biggest sellers of all time are still MMORPGs, and both Diablo III and Skyrim had double figure million sales did they not? suggesting the casual acceptance of RPGs is possibly stronger than ever?

I do sympathise with the German games though, there seems to be quite a big raft of games based from Germany (TDE and Larian) that don't seem to grasp the audience like they should, I'm not entirely sure why as I'm not very experienced with them (though I have played three Divinities), perhaps this is where the sales lamenting is coming from?

I agree that there seems to have been a shift towards the dark-side with regards to RPGs, in that the basic Hero model is often (unfairly) mocked. This could well just be fashion though as this trend pervades all forms of media, from a 'Dark' superman film to 'Shades of Grey' and even Twilight. I suspect the glorious colors and Hero fantasy will come back around at some point as soon as 'dark' becomes the new cliche.

Maylander said:

In other words, you can't sell 300.000 units of a game created by a decent sized team and still make a profit these days.

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Just out of curiosity, how much does a modern AAA title cost to make and how many $60 units does that equate to? (baring in mind not all that $60 goes to the production company).

Depends on a genre and where it's made.

List of some you can find here:
http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-big-video-game-1501413649

And I refuse to play some just because of obvious arrogance, for example SWTOR was funded with 200 millions, instead they could have made at least 4 singleplayer SW AAAA RPGs with that budget. Fourth A I've added for a story. Those other three IMO mean graphics/combat/voiceovers only.

yeah, that's pretty hard to determine!

It does seem that what ever it cost in 2000 you should add a naught for 2010, lol. Two naughts for an MMO!

As a bit of entertainment, here's a link which helps you understand the 'normal' high-street PC game-buying problem for folks like me. I'm not currently adept at making the most out of my internet-based games, because I tend to play games off-line, not by choice, but because my current location where I play games does not have the internet, so I just play games from a CD on my laptop. I'm currently playing NWN2 for the first time which I bought from a charity shop for (£2) $3.

However, when I go shopping, I do look for what's available retail - but in the past couple of years this seems to be becoming a bit of a dead-end.

Here's the fun link:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/software-gaming-books/gaming/pc-games/742_7316_70378_xx/xx-criteria.html

Which game would you buy from this high-street PC specialist?

(free internet points if your choice was the same as mine)

MinorityReport said:

Here's the fun link:
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/software-gaming-books/gaming/pc-games/742_7316_70378_xx/xx-criteria.html

Which game would you buy from this high-street PC specialist?

(free internet points if your choice was the same as mine)

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Duh…SEGA Aliens: Colonial Marines, we all know the classic that turned out to be

Anyway, welcome to the Watch MR, really enjoyed reading this thread.

LOL, nooo, no points for you

Hi, thanks, I don't forum much, but when I do... etc meme.. lol

There are some misconceptions in this thread.

Planescape Torment was in production simultaneously with Baldur's Gate, and the vast majority of the writing was done well before BG was released. It was not a response or an offshoot of it.

Planescape Torment did not sell great, but it did make a profit. I'm guessing a sizable one. It sold about twice as many copies as Fallout, and Fallout did well enough to get a sequel. Also, while the rest of Interplay was rotting away, Black Isle remained profitable until the end.

And, HiddenX you should know better. Knights of the Chalice is not AD&D, it's D&D 3rd edition (yes this is a nitpick).

Also, GOG was interested in selling it, but the creator refused them.

MinorityReport said:

Just out of curiosity, how much does a modern AAA title cost to make and how many $60 units does that equate to? (baring in mind not all that $60 goes to the production company).

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Skyrim cost $85 million to make. Other AAA titles get even more expensive. Bioshock Infinite reportedly cost $200 million.

So that's 2-5 million sales just to break even.

MinorityReport said:

Thanks for bringing us back on topic guys, much appreciated Some interesting stuff to read again.



I think it's a well known fact that PS:T didn't sell well, but as far as I can tell, that's the only one of the series I bring up which didn't turn an immediate profit. Fallout might have had low sales, but they still got a re-boot.



From what I can find on the interwebs, Icewind Dale made a profit - even though it's release date was exactly the same day as Diablo II, Icewind Dale II spent a couple of weeks in the top 10 (which must mean something), Balders Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights both sold 2 million copies each. I don't really see any 'pattern' of declining sales. NWN2 sold well (either 1 million or 3 million, the reference just said 'franchise' 2007)



And I really like this quote from Scott Everts:



"Icewind 1 and its expansions did very well and I’m both happy and proud to have worked on them. The original concept was to make a dungeon crawl instead of a more scripted adventure like the Baldur’s Gate series. So you started out with your full party that you created yourself instead of picking up as you adventure. I think that’s why the Icewind series did well since we didn’t try to just duplicate BG but instead took it a different direction. It gave our fanbase another experience and complemented the BG series quite well."



Which is kind of what I'm on about, in that it suggests companies, at one point, wanted to have lower budget 'support' games, which is the bit which seems to be missing from the last 8 or 9 years from any of the large games companies (though kudos to those that do).



I find it really amazing that Icewind Dale was released the same day as Diablo II and still managed to survive at all to be honest. Imagine what its sales might have been like if there was not that very specific and all-conquering competitor - would that have changed Icewind Dale's whole legacy or what...

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You talk about companies experimenting with multiple types if games as if all of them did it... That's not the case.

We have an RPG developer doing this type of things too right now.
Larian studios made dragon commander a hybrid genre strategy RPG and is now making a fully coop RPG ...

So unless you're saying all the companies or a lot of them were experimenting in such ways then it's not much different now.

Ultima was ultimately the same type of game for a long time.
Final fantasy same thing.

Then you have people like piranha bytes who have tried new designs a few times.

So it certainly isn't as black and white as you see it.....

@tuluse
Thanks for the little corrections.

Another thought comes to my mind, when I'm thinking about AD&D and D&D rules.
These rules were originally made for pen & paper rpgs. In a pen & paper roleplaying game you can develop your party over a long time period. IMHO these rules are not perfect for computer role playing games.
They are hard to implement and are often only fun with low level characters.

As a developer you have always to look for a license to use these rules. Or restrict yourself to the Open game license.

Maybe these are two more causes that we see not so many new D&D games.

These are definately some of my favorite titles, especially NWN which still has a great community with servers like Gondorvsmordor.com which I am still playing. While the graphics look a bit munchkin compared to newer CRPG's, the rules are certainly not and the character build options are endless. You can logon the server with direct connect if you change the NWN target shortcut to C:\NWN\nwmain.exe +connect gvm.publicvm.com for those interested. The server is amazing with the 3d ed D&D rules implemented in a big Tolkien setting.

tuluse

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I didn't know any of that information other than Black Isle was Interplay's main source of actual profit. Someone did say Torn was supposed to be the sequel to Planescape and from my research the resources got re-directed to Icewind Dale II during the caffuffle with Interplay. Though why no-one picked up on Torn at a later date I've no idea.

So now we have two views on Planescape's financial success? It would be nice to have a link to a source either way - I've personally found it very difficult to find any info at all on the sales/profits of anything other than BG2 and NWN.

I looked at the website for Chalice and the guy seemed interested to go through GoG but that GoG weren't replying to him. Maybe I just read an old thread on his site?

Skyrim cost $85 million to make. Other AAA titles get even more expensive. Bioshock Infinite reportedly cost $200 million.

So that's 2-5 million sales just to break even.

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Well, I don't think Icewind Dale would cost that much. Like it's forebear, it would be a 'budget' game to produce, what with them being fully linear, low on plot variation and just reliant on varied character builds rather than epic cinematics. I feel sure someone could make it for $15m + $5m marketing and hope for 500k sales.

The only difficult part about a 2014 remake would be that, because of the cinematic style of today, people would expect really big characters, as in a character in modern games fills about 3-6% of the entire screen. If Icewind Dale was to actually work like it's forebear it would have to have room on the screen for 6 charatcers plus summons, plus 20 monsters and still be fully manageable without having to faf around with camera angles and zooms. In effect, this might even make it even cheaper as this might even force them to use more old-school graphics/layouts.

Pladio

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Yes, Larian have been quite the savior for the colorful classic RPG style, that's why I've played three Divinities.

I think my frustration is partially caused by the immense difficulty I have with using the Divinity series to plug the gap.

I played Divine Divinity back when I had an XP system and loved every minute (just started to tire of the first dungeon on it's last level). But, (and I've read this from lots of other people as well), I couldn't defeat some final boss because of her Spike Stones (along with the spider imps being a really boring drag of a level) and, because of the big drag at the start and end never got motivated for a replay until I had since upgraded to Win7 - where my disk now CTDs from the get-go.

I tried Beyond Divinity and found that to be so strange compared to the first that it took a lot of getting into. Each time I felt I was settled with it, something would annoy me. Also, those 'extra farm areas' where you teleport to drop your loot and chat to people, really killed me, they were soooo griiiiindy. Anyway, I had a CTD somewhere either in or around the smurf village and the started getting CTDs a lot and then just gave up on it.

I was really enjoying Ego Draconis when I also started to get the walking bug (something I've seen a lot of people moan about) where I couldn't move at anything more than a snails pace going uphill. I was amazed such a blindingly obvious and game-breaking bug managed to make to the disk. Anyway, so ended that.

So yeah, I love what Larian is doing and I really do wish Bioware was Larian, but, at the same time, Bioware would never release games as temperamental as Larian. I wish the two teams could merge… (but merge properly so we had Larian's games with Bioware's technical and game-mechanic prowess).

They are hard to implement and are often only fun with low level characters.

As a developer you have always to look for a license to use these rules. Or restrict yourself to the Open game license.

Maybe these are two more causes that we see not so many new D&D games.

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This is why most D&D games always start you at level 1, even for the expansions or sequels. Neverwinter allowed you to get to the God levels of AD&D 3rd ed, but it is difficult to keep thinking of new genuine challenges by that point - it's gonna either be the Devil himself or other Adventurers.

But this is what the fans are used to, so it's no great biggy. Most of the time you play different versions of the same rule-sets just to get a different story or a different 'best character' for the story. For example, in BG the Wizards/Sorcerers rule, but in NWN the Cleric is the OP class and in NWN2 about 50% of posts you read from people are from people playing Paladins. With Icewind Dale it's all about taking the most 'amusing' combination of classes.

As each game came along there was also the fun of the ever greater race choices, from Drow to Barbarian to Half-Orc to Deep-Gnome. By the time you were bored of one game's plot-line you weren't actually bored of all the choices you had to play it with, so, when the next game came along, you could take the opportunity to try out that new race/class without feeling bored.

These are definately some of my favorite titles, especially NWN which still has a great community with servers like Gondorvsmordor.com which I am still playing. While the graphics look a bit munchkin compared to newer CRPG's, the rules are certainly not and the character build options are endless. You can logon the server with direct connect if you change the NWN target shortcut to C:\NWN\nwmain.exe +connect gvm.publicvm.com for those interested. The server is amazing with the 3d ed D&D rules implemented in a big Tolkien setting.

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Yes, the modding community for NWN has always been the best modding community on the planet. I will get back to it one day when the internet once again returns to my gaming cycle.

While there's lots of things that annoy me about NWN2, possibly the subject of a rant thread one day, what I really love about this game is that it still has the fully customisable build aspect of the best of 3rd ed AD&D rules.

I'm currently at character level 11 wearing full body armour and I have:

Fort: 23
Ref:20
Will:18

And this is before I cast any buff spells. And even without being a pure fighter class I can get to 40+ damage per hit by choosing the Criticals route combined with bonus to attack spells/abilities.

The only thing I'm sacrificing is a few AC points and that's not so bad at 27.

Boss fights tend to be easier fights for me than a squad of heavy swordsman goons! And I still have enough skill points to be able to talk my way out of no end of fights or come to a more sensible role solution.

And this is all by personal choice, from character creation choices to gear choices to in-game choices. Anyone who plays it will always have a slightly different character to someone else and every person who plays it can manipulate their build to exactly what it is they want to play.

What other games offer that? To that level of individual perfection?

MinorityReport said:

I didn't know any of that information other than Black Isle was Interplay's main source of actual profit. Someone did say Torn was supposed to be the sequel to Planescape and from my research the resources got re-directed to Icewind Dale II during the caffuffle with Interplay. Though why no-one picked up on Torn at a later date I've no idea.

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Torn was a game Josh Sawyer was developing. I think it was supposed to be an original IP and not directly related to PST or D&D. I'm not 100% sure about this though.

Also, Interplay was a huge publisher in the 90s. Check this list of games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Interplay_games

Black Isle was a small but profitable arm of Interplay.

I looked at the website for Chalice and the guy seemed interested to go through GoG but that GoG weren't replying to him. Maybe I just read an old thread on his site?

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He is unwilling to sell it on GoG, he wants them to sell his RTS game which GoG has no interest in.

Well, I don't think Icewind Dale would cost that much. Like it's forebear, it would be a 'budget' game to produce, what with them being fully linear, low on plot variation and just reliant on varied character builds rather than epic cinematics. I feel sure someone could make it for $15m + $5m marketing and hope for 500k sales.

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Well Project Eternity is being made for about 4 million.

In reply to my (edit: and the excellent recent tulusa reply) paragraph about:

The only difficult part about a 2014

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I have quickly remembered that something along the lines of Kings Bounty style graphics would suit a new Icewind Dale game really well, and I feel sure the Kings Bounty games aren't $80m prodcutions (probably not full AAA either, but they are AAA enough for me!).

tuluse said:

Well Project Eternity is being made for about 4 million.

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I just had a look at that site, and that does look like exactly the kind of game that's been missing for a few years! And covers a lot of points in this thread. I'll def be keeping an eye on that one, so thanks for alerting me to it

And the point of this thread is...?

bloodlover said:

And the point of this thread is…?

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Hi, it examines the difference between 3 very different cRPG styles, acknowledging how each was popular but appealed to different people in their own unique way and then laments about the fact that, since these games were made, only one of the three types ever gets remade: The BG2 format of complex companion character sub-plots, Suggesting that a possible reason for this might be a general trend among the large game developers to not have interest in catering to a wider audience and further game innovation via originality.

Basically, why it is that some gamers feel that the AAA cRPG market has been neglecting them for such an incredibly large amount of time. If you don't feel neglected by the AAA developers then, no, this thread won't mean a lot to you. However, the thread title would only really appeal to those who have played the games in the thread title (even though its reach is further than that and just uses these games as a kind-of typical example of modern AAA game-making) so I'm unsure what it is you've failed to 'point'?

I can't honestly say whether i like baldur's gates or planescape more. they are very different kind of games with unique strenghts and weaknesses like you pointed that out nicely. I'm glad that both games are getting their spiritual successors now, not just bg2.

As for icewind dales..they were fun games to play through, but they never had same impact on me than previously mentioned. Maybe the project eternity could be the game which combines best elements from icewind dales and baldur's gates and spices it with a bit of planescape.

NWN 1 OC left me just cold and unsatisfied. I liked the engine and gameplay, but it just didn't click in a same way as the other three games. Expansion packs were more enjoyable though.

With no disrespect for people who are in this kind of games : interesting stories but turn based combat & parties remind me of gay orgies : not for me.

Torment is a good experience for everyone , Baldur's 2 is a tormented experience to newcomers , NWN is a boring cliche and IWD just terrible. I will take Arx Fatalis or Divine Divinity over them anytime of the day.

Torment was beyond boring to me.