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Personally, I don't see why people shouldn't like the "good old formula that works". It works well, people like it - nothing wrong with it. Yes, I also like the new thing/innovation etc if it works well. So bottom line, I don't care whether it's same thing all over again or something new, as long as it's fun.
 
Originally Posted by Zogar Sag View Post
Human enemies never run away/yield when they are are about to be defeated.

It's a computer game.

Gothic, Kenshi, Kingdom Come, just first few , which come in mind




I have nothing to prove to you nor I feel to answer more on your ""this is bulshit" statements - sorry, you dont get what I was talking about, just picking on small things, leaving whole picture behind.
I really have hard time to understand your ( and others) excitement for another "same old" games again and again. Sometimes I wonder why people here ever liked games like Gothic at first place!

Suppose no amount of explanation would help when basic understanding that other people may like different things is missing. Because similar rant as you wrote could be written just about any other video game genre out there.
 
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Suppose no amount of explanation would help when basic understanding that other people may like different things is missing.
Looks like people writing over and over again that this or that must or should have been UgoIgo.
Conveniently dropping in the taste excuses.
Because similar rant as you wrote could be written just about any other video game genre out there.
Unlikely. This line of products, genre is stalling. Even point and click products must show signs of improvements.

Interesting how you always know what other players want and why.
And that is thanks to this site, such a proper collection of fine specimens to infer from. It allows to build such knowledge.
 
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You are right, that pixel hunting was never considered good game design, even at the old times. But it is also truth, that during transition into early 3D, games lost so much of environmental interactivity it was painful.
Yep, I think you're right.
I don't dare to make an estimation if today's 3D RPGs have less environmental interactivity than the games in the 2D era.
 
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A proper example of flak a dev might endure if taking the path.

It's a computer game.



It's a computer game.
Even Skyrim has stubs of enemy surrendering.

Enemy behaviour in Neo Scavenger:
An enemy tries to ransom its life when on the verge of losing it. It might try to escape with its life (PC has similar options)
Stronger enemies are confrontational and hunt down PCs (PCs has similar options)
Weaker enemies prefer avoidance, they try to hit on a PC when the PC is disadvantaged (injured, sleeping etc) (PC has similar enemies)

Enemies might track down a PC and loot the PC camp when the PC is away.

Neo Scavenger is a video game.

I regularly visit something called a 24 hour petrol station. They're really cool places, which you'd know about if you ever got out your house. It's amazing, any time of day, any day of the week, 24/7/365 I can go there and an NPC will trade with me. Fascinating stuff.
Not enough apparently. Or observation skills are severely lacking.
Usually, people work in shifts. 8 hour, 12 hour, 24 hour, maybe 48 hour shift. More quite unlikely.
Getting out to satisfy that fascination would have led to notice that part, and perceive the difference to a same NPC standing for days on the same spot.
Or maybe, there is a general disregard toward human beings working those jobs, leading to see them as faceless, they are NPCs.
Also, in the medieval period, the small trader usually would be at their counter all day every day, because their shop would likely have been their home. You really could shop 24/7/365, they'd just be more grumpy about it if you wanted a cooking pot at 3am. Same for doctors, priests, etc.
When in the middle ages. People used to work much less during the middle ages, something like one day out of two, the rest was allocated to off days most of the times religious based.
And working on Sundays in christian lands...
The 24/7/365 stuff started to appear when countries suddenly inherited of vast land areas, multiplying by 10 their land mass etc Which came with the issue of dealing with an surge of inputs.
 
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You are right, that pixel hunting was never considered good game design, even at the old times.

What happened to the people like different things stuff. All of a sudden, it is about good game design.

The result of two centuries and more of institutionalized double standards.
 
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What happened to the people like different things stuff. All of a sudden, it is about good game design.

The result of two centuries and more of institutionalized double standards.

You dont see difference between isometric, party based game design, which, I dare to say, is established genre (although niche) and pixel hunting game design?

And even if I completely overlook how you for 1001-st time again compare apples with oranges, I still have all the right to criticize statement that isometric, party based design is history. Because I like it and still play it and Im not history (yet). And I assure you, should there be single person stating he loves pixel hunting design I will be first to acknowledge his right for that opinion. I will not share his taste in this matter, but I will not keep posting how twisted and unfathomable thing that is.
 
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Originally Posted by Zogar Sag View Post
Human enemies never run away/yield when they are are about to be defeated.

It's a computer game.

Gothic, Kenshi, Kingdom Come, just first few , which come in mind

Oh dear, you really are embarassing yourself aren't you...

Baldur's Gate:

Creatures have the three following values related to their morale.

Morale: Current morale, engine caps the value to the range 0 to 20
Morale Break: If current morale is less than this value, Morale Failure occurs. Affected creature will tend to run away from battle or go berserk, unable to control or interact with
Morale Recovery: Ticks (1/15th second) between recovering 1 point of Morale. Most creatures have this value set to 60, or 4 seconds

Spells and Items that grant immunity to Morale Failure do so by setting a creatures Morale Break to 0, such that it cannot be less.

Protagonist’s Morale Break and Recovery are both 1, making them almost impossible to suffer from Morale Failure. They can, but immediately recover from it. Some of the new EE companions have their Morale Break set to 0 by default, making it normally impossible for them to suffer from Morale Failure.

The specific events which cause current morale to decrease or by how much amount are still unclear, though death of an ally is certainly one of them, and damage taken/low health also contribute.

Panic (opcode 24) and Remove Fear (opcode 161) are completely separate from Morale Failure. They cause similar results, but the mechanics do not influence each other, and will not work to cure the other.

Oh dear, BG has both morale and panic as in-game mechanics. Which you would know if you've ever played them, because it's very noticeable when a character's circle at their feet turns yellow and they run away...

I'll reply to the rest of your rather lame response in a different post.
 
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I have nothing to prove to you nor I feel to answer more on your ""this is bulshit" statements - sorry, you dont get what I was talking about, just picking on small things, leaving whole picture behind.

So the things you listed are really big topics for you, one might even describe you as "passionate" about them, but you shy away from any discussion about why you're so passionate about them? Sorry mate, sounds like bullshit to me.

I really have hard time to understand your ( and others) excitement for another "same old" games again and again. Sometimes I wonder why people here ever liked games like Gothic at first place!

I'm not aware of people here complaining about Gothic. Quite the opposite. And here you just repeat the same line you stated in your first post, "again and again", and last time I challenged you to list all of these "again and agains", yet you don't, you just repeat yourself. How embarrassing for you…
 
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You dont see difference between isometric, party based game design, which, I dare to say, is established genre (although niche) and pixel hunting game design?
And people on this site does not see differences between enemies not retreating and enemies retreating, NPCs sitting on the spot all day long and NPCs that do not, enemies that attack despite being weak and those who do not...

It works both ways.

It was not about differences in design. It was about the use of tastes and likes when it sounds convenient.
 
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Neo Scavenger

Is a short single character roguelike that specialises in a realism environment, the time spent making it do one thing means that it is lacking in other areas. Do you see me raging at Neo Scavenger because of all the things that game doesn't have as a result?

Not enough apparently. Or observation skills are severely lacking.
Usually, people work in shifts. 8 hour, 12 hour, 24 hour, maybe 48 hour shift. More quite unlikely.
Getting out to satisfy that fascination would have led to notice that part, and perceive the difference to a same NPC standing for days on the same spot.
Or maybe, there is a general disregard toward human beings working those jobs, leading to see them as faceless, they are NPCs.

Well obviously. The point is that the purchaser experiences no change in gameplay whether it's the same person or a different person, duh. Does it really matter to you that much that a developer should go to point of making shop NPCs 'different' every X amount of hours? Like, for real?

When in the middle ages. People used to work much less during the middle ages, something like one day out of two, the rest was allocated to off days most of the times religious based.
And working on Sundays in christian lands…
The 24/7/365 stuff started to appear when countries suddenly inherited of vast land areas, multiplying by 10 their land mass etc Which came with the issue of dealing with an surge of inputs.

We're not talking about 'workers', we were talking about NPCs. Your refute here is just a generalisation, a classic example of an average that reflects barely anyone individually. It's called 'abstracting', and it's the same reason why when you go round a town or city in a game you don't encounter literally hundreds of NPCs, all with their own agendas and things to say - because that would be ABSURD. ;)
 
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Oh dear, BG has both morale and panic as in-game mechanics. Which you would know if you've ever played them, because it's very noticeable when a character's circle at their feet turns yellow and they run away…

I'll reply to the rest of your rather lame response in a different post.

BG has indeed such system. Been mentioned times to remark the following point: what now.

Because now, a large number of products, including those that claim to be spiritual successors, no longer have it. Instead, companions are recruited to life. They might come with missions to make them more powerful, stuff like that. But not so many products bears consequences like losing a companion if the behaviour is not appropriate.

Second, BG is not the end of it. It having such a system does not mean the system was perfect and could not be improved.

And getting rid of it might be an improvement in a certain way for sure. Especially for people who do not like it in the first place.
But adding to it is also another way.
 
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enemies that attack despite being weak and those who do not…

It works both ways.

It was not about differences in design. It was about the use of tastes and likes when it sounds convenient.

Erm… who are you to say who is and who isn't able to attack whom, both in real life and in-game? How exactly are you going to prove whether a character is significantly weaker or stronger than another creature? Do they all wear badges which state their exact level and skill set? As a PC do you not regularly take on challenges much higher than yourself for the incredible XP gain... and win.

People usually complain more when games are too rigid with matching equally levelled creatures, you know, like level-scaling. I do hope you're not one of those people who also complains about lack of freedom to engage whomsoever you want in a game... since we're on the topic of "argumental convenience hypocrisy".
 
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BG has indeed such system. Been mentioned times to remark the following point: what now.

Because now, a large number of products, including those that claim to be spiritual successors, no longer have it.

So really you're complaining that these games which 'copy' BG are not actually copies, but do their own thing? I thought you were making the argument for games to be their own thing...

Well, this is certainly spiralling into a mess for you isn't it.

What now? I dunno, there are approximately 253 things I care more about in a game than whether nearly dead enemies decide to make a run for it or not & if the enemy provides XP upon death then I'd rather they didn't run anyway.

You might argue both these points are "a matter of personal taste", but I don't see either you or the other guy actually say what the benefit of fleeing opponents actually is. Hence you appear to be being contrarian for the sole pleasure of forum giggles, whereas people who don't care for the mechanic actually have reasons why it negatively effects their gameplay.

Name me a positive reason why this mechanic is so important to you.
 
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Large collection of the lack of arguments a dev would be barraged with when daring to tread away from the safe zone.

Erm… who are you to say who is and who isn't able to attack whom, both in real life and in-game? How exactly are you going to prove whether a character is significantly weaker or stronger than another creature? Do they all wear badges which state their exact level and skill set? As a PC do you not regularly take on challenges much higher than yourself for the incredible XP gain… and win.

Gameplay is based on repetition and a gameplay environment provides reliable information.

An enemy power might be assessed by trial and error. And a power range assigned to an enemy.

Back to Neo Scavenger, a forgotten feature. Bluff and threat.
Sporting gear or attire spread a threat aura. Sporting a wolfsman pelt sends the message that the guy who sports it might have killed a wolfsman and therefore is dangerous enough. It could be bluff as the corpse of a wolfsman could be found (killed by another NPC) and skinned.

Same thing with weapons. Sporting a rifle might hint at a dangerous threat. Or bluff (no bullet to fire)

Threatening with voice too.

An enemy could call out the bluff. Sporting a wolfsman pelt might not be enough to spook an enemy who is able to kill a wolfsman pelt. Reversed situation: the enemy keeps advancing, it must be strong. Time for the PC to be cautious, tables are turned.

All this to tell who is up to attack, be attacked etc
It is up to a player to tell through various gameplay mechanics.


People usually complain more when games are too rigid with matching equally levelled creatures, you know, like level-scaling. I do hope you're not one of those people who also complains about lack of freedom to engage whomsoever you want in a game… since we're on the topic of "argumental convenience hypocrisy".
Zero complaint. Far from it.
So really you're complaining that these games which 'copy' BG are not actually copies, but do their own thing? I thought you were making the argument for games to be their own thing…
Again no complaint.
Just the remark on this BG feature and how self proclaimed old school gamers state they strive to conserve old school gaming.
Improving on a feature is also not copying it.
Most importantly, nowhere written that products must be their own things.

The original point was certain features can not be because players do not like them.
Well, this is certainly spiralling into a mess for you isn't it.
Of course it is. That is the purpose of attributing to people words they have not said.
What now? I dunno, there are approximately 253 things I care more about in a game than whether nearly dead enemies decide to make a run for it or not & if the enemy provides XP upon death then I'd rather they didn't run anyway.
That is the point: dominating, prevailing etc
You might argue both these points are "a matter of personal taste", but I don't see either you or the other guy actually say what the benefit of fleeing opponents actually is. Hence you appear to be being contrarian for the sole pleasure of forum giggles, whereas people who don't care for the mechanic actually have reasons why it negatively effects their gameplay.
Examples of how all these features might benefit were given.

Now, once again, it is written in the first post: all these features are effectively impacting negatively depending on what players desire.

When reading testimonies of rapists, school killers and stuff, it appears they often desire their victims to resist a bit, they desire them to cower in fear, kick, try to get away. It adds to their enjoyment. What they do not want is getting frustrated by a victim that would knock them out, flee successfully...
That is the spirit.

Is a short single character roguelike that specialises in a realism environment, the time spent making it do one thing means that it is lacking in other areas. Do you see me raging at Neo Scavenger because of all the things that game doesn't have as a result?
Never been about realism. It was about Neo Scavenger displaying certain features about enemy behaviours.


Well obviously. The point is that the purchaser experiences no change in gameplay whether it's the same person or a different person, duh. Does it really matter to you that much that a developer should go to point of making shop NPCs 'different' every X amount of hours? Like, for real?



We're not talking about 'workers', we were talking about NPCs. Your refute here is just a generalisation, a classic example of an average that reflects barely anyone individually. It's called 'abstracting', and it's the same reason why when you go round a town or city in a game you don't encounter literally hundreds of NPCs, all with their own agendas and things to say - because that would be ABSURD. ;)

Abstracting, averaging... On a site that screams about Oblivion being voiced over by four actors, on a site that is bent on storytolding...

Here's a case of abstracting, averaging: make all NPCs coloured androgynous NPCs because meeting hundreds of NPCs. Races and genders abstracted and averaged in one and only NPC.
 
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Oh snap!

66637237.jpg



*I didn't actually read any of that. I just thought it would be a good time to insert a meme.*
 
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Large collection of the lack of arguments a dev would be barraged with when daring to tread away from the safe zone.

No-one is barraging a dev for adding fleeing mechanics. Can you stop talking crap? ie: stop making stuff up?

I'll reply to separate points in separate posts to aid readability.
 
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In reply to the topic of the potential absurdity of enemies not engaging because of perceived threat level you reply with:

Gameplay is based on repetition and a gameplay environment provides reliable information.

An enemy power might be assessed by trial and error. And a power range assigned to an enemy.

Back to Neo Scavenger, a forgotten feature. Bluff and threat.
Sporting gear or attire spread a threat aura. Sporting a wolfsman pelt sends the message that the guy who sports it might have killed a wolfsman and therefore is dangerous enough. It could be bluff as the corpse of a wolfsman could be found (killed by another NPC) and skinned.

Same thing with weapons. Sporting a rifle might hint at a dangerous threat. Or bluff (no bullet to fire)

Threatening with voice too.

An enemy could call out the bluff. Sporting a wolfsman pelt might not be enough to spook an enemy who is able to kill a wolfsman pelt. Reversed situation: the enemy keeps advancing, it must be strong. Time for the PC to be cautious, tables are turned.

All this to tell who is up to attack, be attacked etc
It is up to a player to tell through various gameplay mechanics.

None of which actually addresses the point made, that of the enemy choosing not to attack the player party. Your response is a total confusion of topics from both the enemy perspective and the player's perspective, some mechanical, some guesswork, absolutely none of which makes any kind of coherent points which answers the point made. ie: you just talked crap again.

How about you provide an actual example of a situation in Baldur's Gate when you'd rather have seen the human enemy flee at the sight of your mighty sword and why you'd have felt that would have made you happy and why that would have been beneficial to your gaming experience?
 
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