Windows 11

Redglyph said:

Do you mean the security of applications, against piracy?

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No, I mean the general design of the security model. My phone, for example, I think is far more securely designed than my PC, from the security model of the OS, to the hardware.

Ripper said:

I actually think this makes some sense. The security of desktop systems really is pitiful, even compared to the design of phones. Implementing a more secure OS, requiring a TPM, is a step forward, IMO. All future hardware will clearly now include a TPM, and it makes sense to have a version bump to clarify the distinction. Then Windows 10 can be supported long term, until it's likely everyone will have upgraded anyway. I'd be quite surprised if they try to force everyone to Windows 11 quickly, and say "tough luck" to millions of people.

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Supposedly the last major update to Windows 10 will be the 21H2 update later this year, but it will get security patches until it becomes unsupported in Oct 2025. So pre-2018 CPUs can be reasonably used (for Windows) up until 2025 I guess.

Redglyph said:

Do you mean the security of applications, against piracy?

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Since the context here is TPM, that's definitely not what he means.

Just for starters, one example would be data security. Most people don't even encrypt the disk on their desktop/laptop computers, something that's been standard with phones for a long time. For top notch disk encryption, you need to use a TPM with BitLocker.

(my "insane" comment was about the market reaction to the TPM, to clarify)

Ripper said:

No, I mean the general design of the security model. My phone, for example, I think is far more securely designed than my PC, from the security model of the OS, to the hardware.

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Windows probably has to turn the security down a little bit or the average user will complain about how difficult installing software is (the sort of user who would run Linux as root all the time). I don't know if Windows has the right foundations either, maybe it's mostly misused and the #1 target which makes it more exposed than most other OSes. I haven't tried to understand how security was implemented in the recent versions.

I thought you meant TPM would mainly add support for hardware authentication. I don't like the idea of locking all software to one hardware platform, I rather believe in locking it to an individual on multiple platforms. TPM could actually be used for that too. So let's hope that's the direction they'll take.

As for the OS, I want to be able to reinstall it, or to move it to another computer or a modified computer if I need to. But this is not possible anymore with Windows, except if you bought Windows yourself and if you call MS to get the authorization to uninstall/reinstall it. Since most computers cannot be bought without Windows, which means OEM, they're unmovable.

PS: just saw TPM modules had a true random number generator too! Nice. Hey, maybe it can be used for RPGs

Stingray said:

Since the context here is TPM, that's definitely not what he means.

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Ripper had already answered just above. But it wasn't that obvious, TPM has a lot of uses, I don't see why it couldn't be used to prevent piracy. It's actually the perfect tool for that.

EDIT: when I say "perfect tool", I mean the idea of it, not its current implementation

Redglyph said:

I thought you meant TPM would mainly add support for hardware authentication. I don't like the idea of locking all software to one hardware platform, I rather believe in locking it to an individual on multiple platforms. TPM could actually be used for that too. So let's hope that's the direction they'll take.

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Yeah, there are many uses for a TPM, and very secure open source systems like Qubes OS require one. One of the major security benefits is that it can verify the integrity of the boot environment. And, as you say, really anything that involves encryption and keys on the system can be significantly hardened.

There was originally a fear that TPM would be used simply to create a locked down walled garden on Windows. And it could be used that way, but I don't really care - I became a Linux user many years ago, and if TPMs are forced to become standard, that paves the way for general Linux distros to use them constructively, to harden security.

In a sense, the idea of a walled garden, in which only applications approved by a trusted source can run, is very good for security. But the way Linux is doing it, you of course have the freedom to choose which sources to trust, or even create your own trust authority. But essentially they're moving to a model similar to Android, where every application is sandboxed, with a granular permission system on which each app is allowed to do.

As long as we have the freedom to choose what to trust, and it's not fully controlled like the iPhone ecosystem, I think it's a good model.

This makes sense on the business side for TPM but I have a feeling it will be made optional for home users given some recent comments from Microsoft. Bad PR and all that.

Remember these guys tried to sell an all digital steam style XBox and it backfired years ago. Sure they have one now but it''s not the main preference among console players.

I think its more likely they will just extend the support for Win10. If they start saying Win11 may or may not have the chip, then system requirements for software that uses it are going to have to say "must have TPM 2" - which people won't understand.

We still have 4 more years for Win10, so many things can change until then.

I just saw some screenshots of the Win 11 desktop layout and got Windows 8 vibes.

Btw: There's a compatibility tool you can run if you're not sure your system meets the requirements.

Directstorage gonna be win11 only! I'd be annoyed about that if I were a win10 user. I'd be all like "But there's no reason it cannot run on win10! Bloody Microsoft always forcing me to buy their MSDOS5 upgrade"

Well, maybe when there's a killer game that supports it and the new Unreal 5 techs are widely enough adopted and I get my 5nm 6950x and DDR5 and a GPU that wouldn't make me feel embarrassed to have paid $4000 for something that should be $1200 I'll consider upgrading to win12.

The problem is win12 will most probably enforce something that doesn't exist in 99% of machines today but will slowly get implemented on some in the next few years.
Similar to win11.

Windows 12 will only support AR virtual-screens!

Ha ha, I still am planning on getting windows 10 and dual booting it when I get a new computer, just to play some newish games that no longer support win 7. No way in hell am I gonna update to win 11 after I do that. That is years and years away, if ever. (I'm hoping that Linux or something else comes along and starts kicking ass and becomes a completely viable alternative to windows, for P.C. gaming especially - so tired of Microsoft and their B.S.)

I think win 11 looks pretty cool actually. I’m thinking about installing it through the insider program. What’s the worst that could happen? If it sucks I’ll just wipe it and reinstall win 10.

I like trying out new things though. I know I’m supposed to get jaded as I get older but it hasn’t happened yet.

I actually just upgraded to Windows 10 a month ago. Free upgrade from Windows 7 as well. It's not a bad OS - I had been expecting far worse. I'll upgrade to Windows 11 in another 5 years.

Zloth said:

Windows 12 will only support AR virtual-screens!

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Yup, but directly via a machine-to-brain interface. I heard Bill Gates is already rolling out the required interface chip to the population at large.

More news: it sounds like the DirectStorage thing is coming to Win10 now!
https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11-directstorage-windows-10/

Zloth said:

More news: it sounds like the DirectStorage thing is coming to Win10 now!
https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-11-directstorage-windows-10/

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Nice feature if it actually ends up being as good as they make it sound there. I'm assuming that will work with my Samsung Evo SSDs.

The bit I find interesting is there's a bit of a contradiction in the article:

The promise of DirectStorage is that it streamlines the way game data gets processed, taking advantage of the modern storage hardware in our gaming PCs. Using NVMe SSDs, the DirectStorage API aims to reduce game load times and support the huge open world games of our dreams, ensuring texture data et al gets streamed into the world way beyond your vision rather than popping up in front of your face.

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But then:

Having DirectStorage enabled in a game will also not preclude those still tied to hard drives from accessing any given title. "DirectStorage enabled games will still run as well as they always have even on PCs that have older storage hardware (e.g. HDDs)," concludes Uraizee.

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Well, if the direct streaming is going to enable the "open world games of our dreams", I don't see how it can be backward compatible with HDDs. You're not going to be making games that push the envelope because of the instant streaming, if you have to allow for backwards compatibility with mechanical disks.

PB never needed that tech, their openworld needed no loadscreens.

In any case by the time any videogame uses it, hardly any PC won't have SSD inside.

Well I have a 1TB SSD and two 8TB HD's. So if one of you would kindly donate to my go fund me page to buy similar SSD's, as they are expensive compared to the HD's.