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June 27th, 2018, 20:52
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
It's far more nave to pretend your opinions are facts.
Opinions are best presented boldy and unapologetically. The word "fact" itself has become a verbal joke in itself. You can state pretty much anything with evidence, and you'll still have someone pull up some obscure argument to it.

Best just to present opinion as "fact" and let people rage on if they don't like it. You aren't going to change anyones mind over the internet regardless of how much data you throw at them.

Better than 3 paragraphs of hedging words where you aren't really sure what the point or opinion presented was.
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June 27th, 2018, 20:55
As I alluded to I think a big part of the appeal of BG and lots of other classic CRPGs (SSI Gold Box games, NWN, etc.) is the D&D mechanics. That's not to say that any edition of D&D is perfect but it scratches that PnP-like itch in a way that RPGs with a more shallow system don't. Dragon Age: Origins is actually my favorite Bioware game by far but the character creation system is not very good (on that NWN and even BG are far superior). You can spend hours & hours planning out builds in NWN. That's a kind of fun that's absent to me in a lot of newer CRPGs.

We've not had many tabletop based CRPGs in recent years. Now on the horizon we have Pathfinder: Kingmaker & Realms Beyond (i.e., 3.5 D&D) and also Copper Dreams, Graywalkers: Purgatory, (and even Disco Elysium) where the developers are really trying to create their own deep character creation system. Those are the upcoming CRPGs with the most promise IMO. I mean this mainly in the sense of having that "special something" the classics have, even though I personally expect to dislike Kingmaker because of RTwP.
Perhaps like NWN I'll eventually grow to love KM for user mods even if I hate the OC.
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June 27th, 2018, 21:13
Originally Posted by Wisdom View Post
Opinions are best presented boldy and unapologetically. The word "fact" itself has become a verbal joke in itself. You can state pretty much anything with evidence, and you'll still have someone pull up some obscure argument to it.

Best just to present opinion as "fact" and let people rage on if they don't like it. You aren't going to change anyones mind over the internet regardless of how much data you throw at them.

Better than 3 paragraphs of hedging words where you aren't really sure what the point or opinion presented was.
Well said Wisdom.

Just look at my sig below as I realized this a few years back.
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June 27th, 2018, 21:13
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Yes, and I think the point about overrating the classics has validity, too.

But, even with the rose-tinted nostalgia glasses knocked off, I do think in some key ways they were superior to these modern upstarts. Although the contemporary efforts have definitely improved on some things, I think in other ways there are regressions, and that's rather disappointing.
In which ways do you see regression ?

I only started playing RPGs during the Fallout and Gothic era. Comparing to today's RPGs the main thing I find missing in RPGs is a proper faction system of the Gothics and proper C&C from the Fallouts that actually led to very different gaming outcomes.

I think that may be why I really enjoy Age of Decadence where every single choice can have massive consequences and I still very much enjoy the PB games because of their factions (e.g. Voodoo route versus Imperial route was very much integral to Risen 2).

Other newer games which I have enjoyed often had these elements still.

I can't speak for BG as I really dislike RtwP combat and I have almost never enjoyed games with that system and I have tried many.
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June 27th, 2018, 21:16
As I alluded to I think a big part of the appeal of BG and lots of other classic CRPGs (SSI Gold Box games, NWN, etc.) is the D&D mechanics.
I never understood the obsession with D&D myself. I've always thought there were better tabletop RPGs with more interesting mechanics and worlds.

That's why I can't motivate myself to be excited about Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Another D&D derivative system with another generic Forgotten Realms derivative setting, like the world hasn't had enough of D&D already.
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June 27th, 2018, 21:25
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
It's far more nave to pretend your opinions are facts.
I'm not going to preface every opinion I have with a warning, but I could list 50 things that Deadfire and other modern CRPGs do significantly better than Baldurs Gate II.

The issue is that people tend to overlook these improvements out of nolstalgia, because everything is more wonderful when you're a kid. I replayed BG2 a year ago and much of the core game design (not even including graphics, audio, UI, QoL features) aged poorly.

I truly believe that if Baldurs Gate II were released in 2018 with modern technology it would be slammed by critics and players alike.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:14
I quite agree with Dungeons and Dragons not being the best of the best, but they get a lot of credit for being the first giant in the genre. For me, Chivalry and Sorcery, GURPS, and Traveller were superior role playing games back in the day when I played with my gang.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:16
Except that if BG2 was released in 2018, it would be completely different game since the developer would have different mindset, market and access to technology.

What I dislike about the modern games is that it lacks vision and passion. It's all about chasing the next shiny thing that short attention spanned modern gamers want instead of envisaging developers own "perfect" game. Hence the focus on pretty graphics, full voicing, romance, co-op, and insane amount of shallow stretch goals in crowd funded campaigns.

Not saying all modern games are like that, but majority. And I agree with @Farflame that Obsidian will go down the route of modern Bioware.

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June 27th, 2018, 22:16
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
I'm not going to preface every opinion I have with a warning, but I could list 50 things that Deadfire and other modern CRPGs do significantly better than Baldurs Gate II.
And someone could list 50 things that Baldur's Gate II does better, but, like you, they'd only be stating their subjective opinion.

Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
The issue is that people tend to overlook these improvements out of nolstalgia, because everything is more wonderful when you're a kid. I replayed BG2 a year ago and much of the core game design (not even including graphics, audio, UI, QoL features) aged poorly.
Again, your opinion, but you're welcome to it. I did a partial playthrough of BGEE just this past year, and I think it's aged great. Of course the EE version does add some QoL improvements, but it's not as if it radically changes anything.

Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
I truly believe that if Baldurs Gate II were released in 2018 with modern technology it would be slammed by critics and players alike.
I truly believe you truly believe that.
I also truly believe you're 100% wrong.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:19
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
That's why I can't motivate myself to be excited about Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Another D&D derivative system with another generic Forgotten Realms derivative setting, like the world hasn't had enough of D&D already.
And how different was PoE to generic Forgotten Realms setting? For me, there was no significant difference. Also, you haven't played Kingmaker and it's not D&D.
Last edited by purpleblob; June 27th, 2018 at 23:54.

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June 27th, 2018, 22:37
@Couchpotato Ha! Never read your signature before. Thats funny.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:53
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Except that if BG2 was released in 2018, it would be completely different game since the developer would have different mindset, market and access to technology.

What I dislike about the modern games is that it lacks vision and passion. It's all about chasing the next shiny thing that short attention spanned modern gamers want instead of envisaging developers own "perfect" game. Hence the focus on pretty graphics, full voicing, romance, co-op, and insane amount of shallow stretch goals in crowd funded campaigns.

Not saying all modern games are like that, but majority. And I agree with @Farflame that Obsidian will go down the route of modern Bioware.
How many developers do you know to claim this? If they lacked passion, most video game developers would be working in IT instead: better pay, better conditions, far less work and stress.
Again nostalgia: and it's not just with video games. Same is with cinema fans where they ignore all the crap released in good ol' days besides the classics.
Take a look at diversity of rpgs then and now, and tell me which ones followed a more predefined formulae.
As for rpgs being a "hardcore genre": that's plain silly. Genre is famous for very easy to exploit, less player skill required and complex gameplay( next to stealth, strategy/tactics or action games).
People love rpgs because they focus more on expression of your character.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:53
And how different want PoE to generic Forgotten Realms setting?
Deadfire has a very creative setting. It takes place in the fantasy equivalent of Polynesia, which is under exploitation by foreign trading companies and pirate refugees. I'll take that over the bland uninspired settings of the Baldurs Gate saga

Also, you haven't played Kingmaker and it's not D&D.
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That's why I said D&D derivative. Pathfinder is a cheap D&D imitation that had momentary success filling the void in the market left by 4th edition.
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June 27th, 2018, 22:54
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Except that if BG2 was released in 2018, it would be completely different game since the developer would have different mindset, market and access to technology.

That's my point. Baldurs Gate 2 was only great within the context of 20 years ago.
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June 27th, 2018, 23:22
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
How many developers do you know to claim this? If they lacked passion, most video game developers would be working in IT instead: better pay, better conditions, far less work and stress.
Pillars of Eternity and all other "spirirual successors".

Kickstarter campaign using that very "nolstagia" as a bait. Heaps of uninspiring, thrown in stretch goals. Underwhelming world and gameplay. Cheap references to old games.

AAA games from modern Bioware, Bethesda etc

All about graphics, over exeggerated animation, sex scenes as romances.

Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
That's my point. Baldurs Gate 2 was only great within the context of 20 years ago.
No, what I mean is if BG2 was released in 2018, it will resemble something more of modern Bioware games like DA:I, because as you said, climate has shifted dramatically to cater for modern gamers needs.

And sure, you are entitled to your opinion. In my view, PoE system was far inferior to D&D settings & rules. Not very fun at all.

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June 27th, 2018, 23:36
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
No, what I mean is if BG2 was released in 2018, it will resemble something more of modern Bioware games like DA:I, because as you said, climate has shifted dramatically to cater for modern gamers needs.

Then let me rephrase. If POE2: Deadfire was released 20 years ago using the infinity engine, it would be received more positively than Baldurs Gate II.

It's not just the climate that makes it superior, because POE2 isn't exactly mainstream. It's everything about the core game design. Better combat design, better dialogue design, better quest design, better world design, ect. From a basic game design perspective, Deadfire is much deeper and advanced than BG, which wasn't all that amazing even 20 years ago.

Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
In my view, PoE system was far inferior to D&D settings & rules. Not very fun at all.
Personally I've always thought D&D was trash, so many of the things I dislike about POE (much of which Deadfire fixed) are because of the D&D influences.
Last edited by Copper Coin; June 27th, 2018 at 23:50.
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June 27th, 2018, 23:40
Ok, I'm done here. You keep on believing PoE2 is superior then because its obvious a fact to you.

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June 27th, 2018, 23:45
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
Pathfinder is a cheap D&D imitation that had momentary success filling the void in the market left by 4th edition.
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June 27th, 2018, 23:48
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Ok, I'm done here. You keep on believing PoE2 is superior then because its obvious a fact to you.
It's a strong opinion. I feel many people that believe otherwise are blinded by nostalgia.
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June 28th, 2018, 00:01
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
Then let me rephrase. If POE2: Deadfire was released 20 years ago using the infinity engine, it would be received more positively than Baldurs Gate II.
Easy to claim since we'll never know, but I find it highly unlikely.

A significant number of people seem to think Deadfire wasn't even as good as PoE 1.
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